24-11-2004 04:36									#1
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Can you have a scientific leader and a military leader at the same time?

	24-11-2004 04:55									#2
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Yes. You can have as many SGL as you want, but only one MGL at any one point in time.

	24-11-2004 04:56									#3
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I forgot to add go Bruins tonight.

	25-11-2004 00:21									#5
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HOWEVER,

If you already have a leader (either SGL or MGL), you CANNOT get another MGL.

If you have a SGL, you CAN get another SGL.

If you have a MGL, you cannot get another MGL, NOR can you get a SGL.

Got that?

-Arrian

	25-11-2004 02:23									#6
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That cannot be correct Arrain. If you cannot get an MGL while you have an SGL and you cannot get either if you have an MGL you could never have both at once and that you can do.

I have seen saves posted here with two SGL's and one MGL. This must mean that you can have one or more SGL's and still get either an SGL or an MGL.

You cannnot get another MGL if you have one already. Me I have not had an SGL in so long, I wold surely use it quickly.

	25-11-2004 03:41									#7
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I actually got an SGL last night! First one in months.

Alas it was for Steel and yes, I'd already built HD. Not a decent wonder is sight. In fact, not any wonder in sight until the modern era and by then they're all just meh.

And then, as if to taunt me, I got another one with Combustion. Two SGLs in one game and not a dang thing to use them on!

	25-11-2004 07:53									#8
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As I understand it, it's the MGL that does the check for other leaders. If you have an MGL, you cannot get another leader of any kind. If you have a SGL you can get any leader.

	25-11-2004 08:44									#9
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That is correct.

	25-11-2004 22:13									#10
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Really. Interesting. I thought having an SGL prevented getting a MGL. I'll take your word for it.



-Arrian

	26-11-2004 12:20									#11
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Nope. I've sat on SGLs and got MGLs. Why can't you have mutliple MGLs?

	26-11-2004 12:54									#12
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It was just a design choice. Originally they could build great wonders, so if you could stock pile them you could get key ones.

It is not so importnt now since they cannot rush wonders in C3C, but I guess they did not want to bother changing the code.

	29-11-2004 06:28									#13
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quote: If you already have a leader (either SGL or MGL), you CANNOT get another MGL. If you have a SGL, you CAN get another SGL. If you have a MGL, you cannot get another MGL, NOR can you get a SGL.

1)True
2)True
3)False

To generate a Great Leader keep this in mind:

A SGL (Scientific Great Leader), for the purpose of leader generation, will treat all GLs (Great Leaders) as though it were another SGL, including MGLs (Military Great Leaders). Thus you can have as many as there are techs, provided your are the 1st to research all those techs.
The opposite is true for MGLs. For the purpose of leader generation, a MGL treats all GLs (including SGLs) as though it were another MGL, and for that, you can only have one.

So inconclusion, if you currently have a MGL/SGL you can still generate SGLs. If you currently have a MGL/SGL, you cannot get another MGL.

	29-11-2004 08:04									#14
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Maybe I missed something, but is that not what I said?

	29-11-2004 10:20									#15
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quote: As I understand it, it's the MGL that does the check for other leaders. If you have an MGL, you cannot get another leader of any kind. If you have a SGL you can get any leader.

The MGL does not do the check.

The SGL & MGL do independent checks.

If at the end of a turn, you currently possess a MGL and on the next turn you're going to be the first to a new tech, you will get a SGL if the RNG (random number generator) is favorable or if you reload enough times to get the SGL.
However, if you just got an SGL and you try to get a MGL by attacking an enemy AI with an elite unit, you will never get one, no matter how many reloads you do.

	29-11-2004 21:53									#16
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Deleted

Last edited by vmxa1 on 01-12-2004 at 21:33

	30-11-2004 00:32									#17
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I'm with Muad'Dib on this one. It's not possible to get a mgl while holding an sgl. I've held sgl's for prolonged periods of time on many many many many games through many many many many wars and have never produced an mgl. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not using theory for the basis of my argument, I'm using experimentation.

	30-11-2004 01:16									#18
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Deleted

Last edited by vmxa1 on 01-12-2004 at 21:34

	30-11-2004 08:26									#19
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Yes, that is no more than anecdotal information, chuckdelicious.

	30-11-2004 09:53									#20
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No, we do not agree. You can get an sgl if you have an mgl, not vice versa. Point me to a saved game (using standard rules, patch v1.22) that pops an mgl while holding an sgl and I will gladly concede the point. It's all anecdotal and bogus information unless someone proves otherwise. I've put plenty of time into the game, but I've never looked at the code. Muad'Dib is the only poster in this thread to use any sort of factual information. Show me the money!

	30-11-2004 10:12									#21
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Just because you have not loaded the games offered with the "proof", does not mean I need to go find it again for each person that comes along later.

I have also seen this on CFC.

	30-11-2004 11:58									#22
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Sorry guys, but it is impossible to generate a MGL while holding a SGL. But you can generate as many SGLs as you want while holding a MGL.
Now there is a possibility for the difference in views. I have Conquest with the 1.22 patch with a slight mod to terrain--no other mods-- which means it could be another damn bug.
Other wise I have a game save ready to send anyone who wants it. Its 650KB, too big to attache here, but if you reply to Mauddib@intergrafix.net asking for it, I'll send it to you. I'm at war with several AIs and get Lazer next turn. And I'm telling you, if you get a MGL and end turn you will get the SGL if you reload enough times; however, when you end turn and get the SGL, you will not get the MGL when you resume combat as long as you hold onto that SGL no matter how many reloads you try. And that's a fact.

Last edited by Muad'Dib on 30-11-2004 at 12:05

	30-11-2004 17:22									#23
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Is your save an autosave? If it is, just save it normally and then post it. Autosaves are ridiculously huge, I would guess your file is around 200k in non-autosave form.

	01-12-2004 00:03									#24
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Nope, its a normal save.
I explored it that's how I know how big it is--650kb.

	01-12-2004 00:38									#25
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Maps that are large or huge will get way beyond 200K. I suspect that more civs and very late in the game they will be 500K plus on even std maps.

Autosaves will be in the MB. I had one sent to me that was over 6MB.

	01-12-2004 07:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Just because you have not loaded the games offered with the "proof", does not mean I need to go find it again for each person that comes along later. I have also seen this on CFC.

It's just too bad that you're wrong then. Muad'Dib has the "proof". Thx buddy.


I'm going to summarize great leader generation.

Scientific Great Leader:

Whenever you finish researching a tech that has not been previously researched by another civ, there is a chance that an SGL will appear.

Military Great Leader:

Whenever an elite unit is victorious in battle, there is a chance that an MGL will appear. This is contingent upon:

1. You do not currently possess a great leader of either type.
2. The elite unit has not already produced an MGL. If the unit has been upgraded since it produced an MGL, it may produce another.

Note that there are no contingencies on getting an SGL. Also, chances vary according to a tribe's traits and the construction of the heroic epic.

	01-12-2004 08:20									#27
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It is not possible to prove his proposition. It may be correct, but you are incorrect when you say he has the proof.

My point is that the fact that you do not get the leader with his save, proves only that you cannot get one with his save.

	01-12-2004 11:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 We all agree (do we not) you cannot get any leader, if you have an MGL. So the only way you can have one of each is that SGL does not prohibit another leader form coming. That leader can be any type.

It proves that statement incorrect, does it not?

You started this thread correctly when you said:

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 You can have as many SGL as you want, but only one MGL at any one point in time.

You got confused somewhere in there about what stops the creation of additional MGL's.

Look, I'm not trying to flame or troll or anything of the sort. Just let go of your hubris, and let's move on.

	01-12-2004 21:51									#29
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Sorry I did not mean to say you cannot get any leader, that was a mistake. A brain fart.

I agree you can get any number of SGL's. I agree you cannot get an MGL, if you have one.

I am not sure about the MGL stopping an SGL. My point was that it cannot be proven to be correct via an individual game.

I do not feel your were trolling and I am not upset about anything you said. You could be right, that is what is attempting to be determined. Well maybe the part about pride, that was confusing to me. I have no problem being wrong. I am only looking for clarity.

So I ran a game as a test. I got a very early MGL somewhere in the 2100bc time frame. I held it all the game. I was first to every tech in the game and got to future tech.

I was Germany so I was scientific. I did not get an SGL. All that proves is I did not get an SGL. I could have not had the MGL and still not gotten any SGL.

I see no way to prove that hypothesis. It may be right, but I cannot veritfy it. That is my only point.

So let me apologize if I was out of line or unclear. I have been known to run off the cliff, thinking I was on the right road. I am perfectly wiling to be shown the right road.

I removed a few of my post as they cannot be verified either or were in error. I do not want to pass on any misinformation. That helps no one.

	02-12-2004 08:46									#30
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First of all, I apologize for the hubris comment.

Onto the testing. For analysis, in a civ game, it helps to turn off preserve random seed. That way you can just keep reloading when you discover a tech and see if eventually you will get an sgl. Similarly, you can place a stack of elite units that are about to go to battle and then keep reloading until you get an mgl. This method is NOT infallible, but you can achieve a great enough sample to remove the statistical irregularity.

Hmmm, I'll start a game on the lowest level (whatever that is, I've never tried it) with the smallest map size and see what we can find out. I'll post the saves when I get it ready.