27-11-2004 18:33									#1
	Kramsib's rule for reforesting. Remove this text

Hi everyone:

As everybody knows, the exploit of clearing and planting forests to get extra shields was erased from the game as it was used to accelerate production.

Was this really an exploit?

The problem, IMHO, wasn't the exploit of extra production given by forests, but an inefficiency in the numbers.

I'll explain.

Let's assume that forests give extra production every time they are cleared.

A player who clears a forest and then he re-plants it, obtains the following production.

Pa = sf * Tc + sp * Tp + k

Where

sf = shields produced by a forest in a turn.
Tc = turns of clearing.

sp = shields produced by a plain / grassland, in a turn.
Tp = turns of planting.

k = extra shields given from clearing.

Using the numbers in the game, we can get (assuming we are on plains)

Pa = 2 * 3 + 1 * 3 + 10 = 19

Whereas, a player who doesn't clear the forest obtains the following production in the same number of turns.

Pb = sf * ( Tc + Tp)

Pb = 2 * (3+3) = 12


Pa > Pb

So, clearing and planting is better than let forest produce by its own, there is an inefficiency and exploiting the trick is the best strategy.

Now, What we want to get?, we want to prevent this from happening, we have 2 alternatives.

Let extra production happens only once ---> What we have in the game currently.

Change the numbers ---> My idea.

Under my idea we need:

Pa < Pb , subject to k > sf * Tc

This means:

sf * Tc + sp * Tp + k < sf * ( Tc + Tp )

After operating, we have:

k < (sf - sp) * Tp

Assuming that:

sf = 2,
sp = 1

sf - sp = 1

So

k < Tp

Finally

Tp > k > sf * Tc

Assuming:

sf = 2
Tc = 3

k must be more than 6. k is currently 10, this is a good number.

Consequently Tp must be more than 10, 11 can be an option.

Finally:

The number of turns for planting should be 11 or higher to allow extra production more than only once when clearing forest and prevent the exploit.

What do you think?.

Last edited by Kramsib on 28-11-2004 at 05:41

	27-11-2004 20:19									#2
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Uh, if you could describe this in one paragraph I'll give you my opinion. Seems interesting from what I gleaned, though.

	28-11-2004 00:38									#3
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To prevent the exploit, you could make the number of turns required to plant a forest longer. But would this be in balance with other 'terraforming' activities and their turns length?

	28-11-2004 00:51									#4
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And what would it change? Fascist Workers with Rep Parts can do anything in a turn.

You'd have to make it like 100 turns, to actually get some results. Basically force the requirement of so many Workers, that the whole thing is only worth doing in very specific situations.

The problem is, forests grow, they don't get "built". It can be helped that they grow healthier, and thus a little faster, but that's just about all you can do in real life. Stacking Workers in Civ makes the whole idea ridiculous, no matter what you do.

	28-11-2004 02:48									#5
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I like the premise of the idea, its a good one. It also feels intuitive. As Modo says though, you can double, triple, or more up workers so that the turns to plant and clear are variable. I think to expand the problem you have to somehow consider the cost of the extra workers and government types, which is rather variable. But with what you have, further avenues of investigation are warranted.

Also, the word is inefficient, not unefficient. At first I thought it might just be a typo but you did it a few times.

	28-11-2004 02:55									#6
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If there was minimum planting time, regardless of workers, that would hamper abuse and be more realistic. It could even be year-based, as opposed to turn-based.

	28-11-2004 05:37									#7
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That's it, change the limitation.

Firaxis had better fix planting time to Tp turns instead of only one extra shields per planting.

(Sorry for my inefficient English )

	28-11-2004 09:31									#8
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Problem with your work: Corruption.

This was an exploit because around end game you would have vast numbers of workers, and could get gobs of production for cities doing this.

and of course the fact that the AI could not.

	28-11-2004 10:08									#9
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I like the current system. If you can repeatedly get Shields out of every tile via Plant/Chop Forest, you end up with a game with a lot more micromanagement. Although it takes a lot of Workers to generate just 10 Shields, that's 10 free Shields per turn once your Workers have nothing better to do. Although those free Shields are nice, giving the same order to 30+ Workers every turn is not something even hardcore micromanagers truly enjoy.

From a realism perspective, I also prefer the current system. Only within the last half-century has the foresting/deforesting industry really taken form, and even then it's not like we're mostly chopping the trees we planted 20 years ago. Rather, the demands of industry, consumers and "progress" are requiring that we chop down more and more of the earth's virgin forests, a fact which is nicely modeled in the current "chop once only" system.

	28-11-2004 11:48									#10
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Realism? Dom, you blasphemer.....wash your mouth out

	28-11-2004 12:28									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae From a realism perspective, I also prefer the current system. Only within the last half-century has the foresting/deforesting industry really taken form, and even then it's not like we're mostly chopping the trees we planted 20 years ago. Rather, the demands of industry, consumers and "progress" are requiring that we chop down more and more of the earth's virgin forests, a fact which is nicely modeled in the current "chop once only" system.

Atually, this is slowly getting reversed. With people recognizing the value of forests, some countries do try to plant more than they cut down, and companies buing wood switch to more ecological providers. I know for a fact, that Poland is doing this for some time now, increasing both the quality and quantity of it's forests.

So the "chop once only" is ok, but only up to a certain point in the modern times. I'd guess it's often the point where you get enough spare Workers to keep replanting...

	28-11-2004 12:39									#12
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I don't know if this is common practice but IIRC in Maine, it is law for every tree a lumber company cut down, they are required to plant three.

	28-11-2004 21:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Atually, this is slowly getting reversed. With people recognizing the value of forests, some countries do try to plant more than they cut down, and companies buing wood switch to more ecological providers. I know for a fact, that Poland is doing this for some time now, increasing both the quality and quantity of it's forests.

What is the current year, 2004? The game is about to end in a few turns...

	28-11-2004 21:35									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

While I believe the argument to have some merit, I don't think that the programming is up to the task of keeping up with tiles that have been deforested and altering the Tp for that tile.

The current system is an effective compromise and makes you give thought to when exactly deforestation should take place for maximum benefit.

	28-11-2004 22:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae What is the current year, 2004? The game is about to end in a few turns...

The described situation concerns Modern Times in general. It's more than just a few turns.

I agree with Punkbass' idea here. It's simple enough to be implemented, and would make the game a lot closer to reality.

	28-11-2004 22:28									#16
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Yeah, you could even have 'planting time' which could be speeded by additional workers, and then growing time which takes a given number of years/turns regardless.

	28-11-2004 23:26									#17
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I'm concerned about the impact upon players who prefer to spread out terraforming among workers.

	29-11-2004 00:08									#18
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Well, they're slow enough as it is

Seriously, if you tie it to years and make it 25 years or something but also make seeding a high number of turns, the seeding will take a very long time in the AA when there aren't workers to spare for seeding and chopping everywhere and by the time there are you're probably looking at at least 5 turn growth time, probably 13.

	29-11-2004 00:14									#19
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If you chop the forest completely, make that 50 years. At the very least.