29-11-2004 04:28									#1
	Macedon in GA? Tired of ads?

Do we know if the Macedonians have entered a GA yet? Usually they do at the start (Hoplites vs. Persia), but if they began the game at PEACE with Persia, they may not have.

The reason I ask is, it's in our best interest to maneuver them into a GA as soon as possible, so they are not in a GA by the time they are at war with us (or at minimum have few turns of producing Heavy Cavs during the GA).

	29-11-2004 04:53									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

They are at peace and they have only built the Colossus, which didn't cover their Industrial trait (it did cover Seafaring and Commercial, so they're close). So they shouldn't be.

My concern is, how to get them to war with Persia and to stay away from us. They might be slow, but they'd come in numbers.

	29-11-2004 07:12									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm just saying we should encourage war with Persia at the earliest possible opportunity.

Did they have any battles at all? It would only have taken 1 - the first turn they could theoretically have attacked with a hoplite, if I recall correctly (although it takes some doing). Maybe not.

Either way, we can encourage either Persia, or perhaps sooner Scythia to war with them. Scythia is quite happy to war with both Persia and Macedon, from what I recall, so it might be worth encouraging them to war with Scythia at their earliest opportunity.

	29-11-2004 11:59									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Snoopy, if there is no war, they don't get to fight. It's simple.

By "encourage war", do you mean we ally with someone and attack them, or do some diplomatic tricks to get them into a fight? What tricks, 'cause none come to my mind? I'd be against declaring on a strong neigbour and allying with someone against him, unless we have a devastating advantage. Otherwise the War Happiness combined with the GA he enters would hurt us big time.

	29-11-2004 11:59									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Were not ready to meddle with macedon, so this discussion though useful is premature.

The current Emporer already has a specific plan to follow and to get another nation to war with Macedon means an alliance with X against them.

This is not currently in our best interests but maybe when Carthage has been raised and the islands secured.

	29-11-2004 16:32									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Not necessarily ... A strong Scythia allied to us would mean a likely war between Macedon and Scythia. The same with Persia, although it would have been worth it to check the scenario to make sure the two were set up to hate each other (with the locked war they might not have bothered). Trading techs aggressively with the two might put them in a spot where they can happily go to war with Macedon...

	29-11-2004 16:49									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Now I see. We sell something to Persia. Then we strip Macedonia of it's cash, while leaving them without the tech. They have a load of units, so the AI might demand tribute and declare, should the tribute not come. Macedon declaring on Persia would be the perfect thing for us...

Last edited by Modo44 on 29-11-2004 at 16:58

	29-11-2004 16:56									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Leaving them without MT. I'm sure we can get their cash for other things.

	29-11-2004 17:07									#9
	Suffering from ads?

I'm afraid we can't , not until we get Republic. And by that time the AI might already have some of our bargaining chips.

Probably the only way would be to reverse it and make Persia declare. They have no cash in the 300 BC save, while the Macedonians do. Both lack Military Training, while having Construction and Monarchy. But that would give the Macedonians Military Training.

And there's the problem of Carthage. We should really get the big guys into the war, to make sure they don't ally against us, and to make sure they don't trade with Carthage.

It looks more and more like the Macedonians are a candidate to be our friend and ally. Now that is sick.

	29-11-2004 20:04									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We should make the macedonians our allies, at least for now. That would definately cover our backs until we are ready to deal with them.

What does everyone think of that?

	29-11-2004 20:29									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It's tricky either way, without the war between Macedonia and Persia (thanks Paddy ). I'd risk the 20 turns alliance. After that we should be well defended wih Legions III. Err, scratch that, we should have some armies with Legions III.

I say do it:

• Alliance with Macedon against Carthaginians, all their 619 gold plus 3gpt - we give Military Training
  
• Monarchy and World map from Persia - we give Military Training
  
• Alliance with Egypt against Carthaginians, Construction - we give Military Training.

Eat that, Hannibal.

BTW, put embassies in Celtic and Scythian capitals and try to get them against Carthage as well (Celts are cheap). This should tie many, many resources in useless fighting. By useless I mean: not against Rome.

	29-11-2004 21:35									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't think there's any urgent need to ally with Macedonia against Carthage, particularly if it's costly to do so (I haven't checked the save). But I can see the benefit in allying with the Celts / Scythia / Egypt against Carthage.

As for 20-turn deals, I'm sure you would all expect me to confirm that I for one, have no qualms about breaking a 20-turn alliance / peace deal against an AI, particularly in a scenario

	29-11-2004 22:33									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ally with Macedonia, because we have no direct means of getting them into a war elsewhere, and we want AI-AI relations spoiled as much as possible anyway (they're bound to sign peace before 20 turns, due to units unable to reach each other). Need I remind you that Macedonia has numerous Hoplites close to our udefended border. I say, give them direction. And another thing - we have to sell them MT to get that gold anyway.

	29-11-2004 23:09									#14
	Remove this text

Aren't the Macedonias in this conquest Scientific, Commerical, and Seafaring and therefore likely to be in a GA as soon as they build the GL anyway?

	29-11-2004 23:29									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Macedonians here are Industrious, Commercial and Seafaring. Like I said, they have only Industrious to cover, now that they have built the Colossus.

	30-11-2004 00:39									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

As I recall, Herridan's Wall is the only Industrious GW in this conquest.

	30-11-2004 00:50									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The more important it becomes. Well, let's hope our new Emperor does a good job securing it.

	30-11-2004 18:54									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It looks like we are leaning towards alliance here.

Since Im going to begin playing today iof you have any more comments on this issue its time to post them

	30-11-2004 19:34									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I will not veto an alliance with Macedonia, only because it prevents them from allying with Carthage against us. I doubt however, that such an alliance will last the 20-turn term, since we will surely make peace with Carthage within 10 turns.

	01-12-2004 05:58									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 It's tricky either way, without the war between Macedonia and Persia (thanks Paddy ). I'd risk the 20 turns alliance. After that we should be well defended wih Legions III. Err, scratch that, we should have some armies with Legions III. I say do it: Alliance with Macedon against Carthaginians, all their 619 gold plus 3gpt - we give Military Training Monarchy and World map from Persia - we give Military Training Alliance with Egypt against Carthaginians, Construction - we give Military Training. Eat that, Hannibal. BTW, put embassies in Celtic and Scythian capitals and try to get them against Carthage as well (Celts are cheap). This should tie many, many resources in useless fighting. By useless I mean: not against Rome.

I agree completely with all three of these suggestions.

Aqua, you're right, we'll probably declare peace with them - but the Macedonians will probably do so, sooner.

I suggest as well we do the best we can do to get the Macedonians a good opportunity to attack Carthage, so they trigger their GA.

The only one of the three alliances we might reconsider is Egypt; they are a usefully weak civ that we might ally with the Macedonians against as well, to give them an easier target to attack (geographically easier)...

	01-12-2004 06:21									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Actually, with Cavalry, Carthage bacomes very close to Egypt, all of a sudden. While for Macedonians, they'd have to go through Persia, who might not appreciate that.

	01-12-2004 06:28									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

Don't they have ships? Or am I somehow confused? I seem to recall the Greeks having boats And I'm sure they could manage somehow ... I certainly considered attacking Egypt in a few of my games, but who knows...

	01-12-2004 12:08									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You know the AI, don't you? They might have ships, but if they don't have amphibious units, it doesn't really help them. Having a superior cavalry OTOH...

	01-12-2004 16:40									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmm, that's annoying. No, I hadn't really paid attention to that part of the AI - I rarely have an AI I worry about past the point in which water-borne combat is reasonable ... roman scenario included I hadn't really noticed they don't attack w/o amphibious units...

	01-12-2004 16:55									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh, they do "attack". You get like 1-2 ships unloading their cargo once every 10 turns or so. Sooo much danger.

The point is, with such small numbers only amphibious units can make a real damage. And the AI will still move the bulk of it's forces by land, if only a route exists.

	02-12-2004 04:32									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Right. But, if they take even two or three hoplites, we get the GA we wanted ...

	02-12-2004 11:46									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well, you don't have to convince me. I would have allied with them. But no poll was there to vote. Oh well, better luck next time.

	17-12-2004 12:10									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

this thread is closed

Hope to see you at The Three Weeds Tavern for a jug or two