29-11-2004 23:14									#1
	Austrians say: either Croatia is in or we block Turkey Got spare money?

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4121b756-4...000e2511c8.html

quote: Turkey's bid to start talks to join the European Union could be complicated by a separate dispute over Croatia's membership application, senior EU diplomats are warning. Some EU members, including Britain and several Nordic countries, have reservations about initiating talks with Croatia because of its failure to hand over wanted war criminals. Austria and Germany, however, lead another group of EU members determined that talks with Croatia begin at the earliest opportunity. EU diplomats fear the two membership bids could become entangled when European leaders meet in Brussels on December 16-17 to consider them. They are concerned that Austria, which is hostile to Turkish membership, could be obstructive over Ankara unless it gets its way over its historic ally, Croatia “If we say no to Croatia, then there could be problems over Turkey,” said one EU ambassador. “Austria, for one, could have a problem; maybe even Germany.” The Croatian question arises from a report this month by Carla del Ponte, chief prosecutor at the UN's International Criminal Tribunal on the former Yugoslavia. She claims that Croatia has slowed down its efforts to find Ante Gotovina, a fugitive Croatian general, since the summer when the EU formally accepted the country as a candidate for membership. “Today neither results nor significant progress can be reported,” she said. “This is a cause of serious concern, for the non-arrest of Gotovina could influence the arrest of [alleged Serbian war criminals Radovan] Karadzic and [Ratko] Mladic.” Austria believes that Croatia is doing its best to find the wanted men and that the EU should not have its membership policy decided by Ms del Ponte. It insists it will not try to link the Croatia and Turkey membership bids. “We want to separate the two of them,” said one Austrian diplomat. Nevertheless, many believe such a link will inevitably be made in coming weeks. One EU diplomat described Austria's position as “an opportunity”, in which Vienna's hostility to Turkey could be bought off in return for a green light to Croatia. Both Turkey and Croatia want to start talks in 2005, although the latter is hoping to join the EU by 2009, while the Turkish negotiations will take much longer. The biggest question facing the Turkish bid is what conditions would be attached by EU leaders. France, where a majority of citizens oppose Turkey's membership, wants the EU to be specific that the “open-ended” nature of the talks could lead to something less than full membership. Turkey's leaders are insisting they will not accept such a status.

Austria

	29-11-2004 23:16									#2
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But you know, only France and Germany decide in those cases

	29-11-2004 23:17									#3
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I just hope underlaying European animosities with regards to Turkey's membership don't break over Croatia's (or any other small country's) back.

	29-11-2004 23:19									#4
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Yeah, that would be pretty stupid.

	29-11-2004 23:26									#5
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Austrians support us because they don't want to wait at the border when they come to Adriatic

Germans traditionally support Croatia. France less so.

We are getting bugged for no reason really, just so Serbs couldn't point to us and say "hey why do we have to extradite all these guys and Croatia doesn't". It's a joke with the War Crimes tribunal, they have to spread some blame to look unbiased.

Frankly I'd like to stay out of EU, because I read what the famous political analyst Pekka wrote about how France and Germany run the show and Finland never gets the memo. If they didn't get the memo, we wouldn't either! I don't want in that, I'd rather that they keep bossing us around in the colonial position we are now

	29-11-2004 23:27									#6
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I wanna be in the EU. How do I apply for membership?

	29-11-2004 23:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion We are getting bugged for no reason really, just so Serbs couldn't point to us and say "hey why do we have to extradite all these guys and Croatia doesn't". It's a joke with the War Crimes tribunal, they have to spread some blame to look unbiased.

Pffft, like yours side didn't committ war crimes every bit as nasty.

	29-11-2004 23:29									#8
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You are a commie, you're auto-accepted, they'll even apologize for having strayed from the Path to socialism, but only temporarily

	29-11-2004 23:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I wanna be in the EU. How do I apply for membership?

Send me all your money and I talk to Gerhard and Jacques about it

	29-11-2004 23:32									#10
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Pffft, like yours side didn't committ war crimes every bit as nasty.

It did. But the tribunal doesn't find those people who commited the actual crimes, it attempts to catch the big fish and is having llittle success in finding the right guys.

However, its existance alone facilitated some very good stuff, so I support it overall

	29-11-2004 23:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Send me all your money and I talk to Gerhard and Jacques about it

All I have is negative money. My debts are all yours. Thanks

	29-11-2004 23:36									#12
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EU has had enough commies. What they need is some libertarians to balance things.

For start, abolish personal ID cards in all EU!

	29-11-2004 23:42									#13
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I refuse to become a libbie. That operation where they remove your heart and half your brain is just too much.

	29-11-2004 23:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara All I have is negative money. My debts are all yours. Thanks

You know, this can actually be an advantage for applicants, or at least it hasn't been an obstacle thus far.

	29-11-2004 23:42									#15
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Of course all this means nothing since Cyprus (and Greece, by solidarity) will veto the Turkish bid because Turkey still does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus.

For obvious reasons anyway, even if Croatia gets into negotiations with the EU, I am certain that it will somehow be stripped of the capability of vetoing out a future candidacy of Serbia, since at least Greece, but also Bulgaria and Rumania who will be in first, will have reasons to want the Serbs in as well.

Also note that Greece is prepared to block EU talks with FYROM until the name dispute is solved. Yet Greece wants ALL it's neighbours eventually join, even Albania and Turkey, if this is the only way to bring stability and funding to the area. At least that's what the government says. The people in the street would tell you otherwise if asked.

	29-11-2004 23:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Monk You know, this can actually be an advantage for applicants, or at least it hasn't been an obstacle thus far.

Despite being in the South, I'm not from the 3rd world.

	29-11-2004 23:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by axi Also note that Greece is prepared to block EU talks with FYROM until the name dispute is solved.

This is just stupid. If you're both part of the same country, the EU, who cares what other parts call thesmelves or what borders are. Heck, once inside the EU, there's no real reason to stop each little national group from having their own state, is there?

	29-11-2004 23:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara All I have is negative money. My debts are all yours. Thanks

Then you cannot be in the EU, Germany alone has debts enough

	29-11-2004 23:48									#19
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Hmmm... Austria in dispute over Balkan state, Turkey also involved....

Perhaps Austria should send some politician to Sarajevo for some talks.....

Edit: get the city right, idiot.

	29-11-2004 23:49									#20
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quote: At least that's what the government says. The people in the street would tell you otherwise if asked.

If people in the street got asked, half of new EU members wouldn't have made it in, not only Turkey.

Face it, EU is being crafted by a tiny political and bureaucratic elite. People all over Europe never really had a say in the process.

	29-11-2004 23:53									#21
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quote: People all over Europe never really had a say in the process.

Considering how you are a bunch of Eurocoms, that may be the wisest decision .

	29-11-2004 23:55									#22
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Hm, in the early 90ies after the fall of the eastern bloc the people were for an eastern EU expansion in very high numbers (around 90 %) at least in here Germany, but meanwhile it has declined drastically......

	29-11-2004 23:56									#23
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Btw., Croatia would never even threaten to block Serbia's membership. Really. We have a few outstanding issues, but nothing of that magnitude.

	29-11-2004 23:58									#24
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quote: This is just stupid. If you're both part of the same country, the EU, who cares what other parts call thesmelves or what borders are. Heck, once inside the EU, there's no real reason to stop each little national group from having their own state, is there?

That's why they're still shooting at eachother in Belfast, is it? Or do you expect the UK to grant NI statehood anytime soon?

My main point though is that it is not Cratia that will block Turkey's bid. VetLegion's article is seeing a single tree and is overlooking the friggin forest. Austria can say whatever they please if they know it's not their veto that will keep Turkey out.

	30-11-2004 00:00									#25
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Hm, in the early 90ies after the fall of the eastern bloc the people were for an eastern EU expansion in very high numbers (around 90 %) at least in here Germany, but meanwhile it has declined drastically......

How much was it? 1000 billion DM in 10 years poured into DDR, and all for naught?


On the other hand, I'd be very surprised if a poll on the German street was ever in favour of Turkey's membership.

People won't decide that one, like they didn't the previous ones.

	30-11-2004 00:03									#26
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quote: Originally posted by axi Also note that Greece is prepared to block EU talks with FYROM until the name dispute is solved.

It's been resolved. The US has decided to call them Macedonia.

	30-11-2004 00:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by axi That's why they're still shooting at eachother in Belfast, is it? Or do you expect the UK to grant NI statehood anytime soon? My main point though is that it is not Cratia that will block Turkey's bid. VetLegion's article is seeing a single tree and is overlooking the friggin forest. Austria can say whatever they please if they know it's not their veto that will keep Turkey out.

Of course. This is all small scale political maneuvering that is not that significant. I posted it since there hasn't been much discussion on the general subject lately.

I find Greece's position on Macedonia and Turkey undefensible. Greece was admitted into EU because of geopolitical reasons at a time that it didn't meet all the criteria for membership. If someone had gotten uppity at that time and insisted, say, on human rights situation, Greece wouldn't have entered when it did.

Since then Greece has benefitted immensly from EU membership, and now it fancies it has a right to prevent some other countries from getting the same, claiming totaly dumb reasons as "name stealing"

Grow up.

	30-11-2004 00:15									#28
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Axi, you're right though that EU membership itself won't magically resolve existing issues and tensions between countries and nations by itself.

Especially problematic in that regard is, in my opinion, the Albanian question in Kosovo, but Bosnia is also a significant problem that can't be solved simply by admitting the whole mess into EU.

	30-11-2004 00:17									#29
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Greece's position on FYROM is undefensible, yes. But Cyprus's position (it is a position of the Cyprus Republic primarily, Greece will just support it) is very fundamental: Turkey does not recognise the existance of a EU member state and declines to establish an embassy. The two countries do not have ANY diplomatic relations and one can't travel from one to another. They are currently in a friggin CEASEFIRE. That's why Cyprus cannot help but veto Turkey's bid, as long as this situation stands. And this if we disregard the whole occupation issue.

	30-11-2004 00:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Btw., Croatia would never even threaten to block Serbia's membership. Really. We have a few outstanding issues, but nothing of that magnitude.

Ah I didn't realize that a recent war and couple of ethnic cleansing incidents qualify for something so minor as 'an outstanding issue.'