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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
I don't know, vondrack. Only last turn, you mentioned that there was more activity in one turn time, than in the previous 4 months or so. Maybe this is more stress than excitement, but at least something is happening. |
Emphasis added. Yes, it's more of a stress than excitement ATM, at least for me. This war has come in the worst time real-life-wise. The last two months of every year are extremely business intense and I would be having hard time keeping up even without having to spend so much time on this game now.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Of course, we've been preparing this war for over 6 months, for us it is something to look forward to. And I don't mean winning a battle, but just thinking about it, seeing how you react, and the constant tweaking of plans (if plans survive a turn, as you've been masters in doing exactly the right thing to bother us, so far) is great. It also gives us more opportunities for team interaction, and the forum has been buzzing lately. As long as you're micromanaging, nobody really needs a team... but after all, we all joined this game to play the game in a team atmosphere. |
All true... perhaps just the stakes are too high for me... higher than for other folks. I have spent so much time with this game that I'd totally hate losing it because of not having time to focus on it right now, when it's needed so much. And so I always spend those two or three days pretty much neglecting my real-life, juggling with numbers, calculating probabilities, running scenarios, posting plans and reports... just to have my conscience clear. If we lose because of bad RNG or because of that you and GoW are simply too much to defend against for a single tech-backward team, so be it. But losing the war and game because of not giving it what it needs now... that would leave a very bad taste in my mouth... kinda like investing my 2-year savings into some stock and then, being busy with other stuff, forgetting to watch the stock market closely, losing it all.
Besides... I gotta say I am getting tired of fighting desperate wars against odds. I have had one in my only individual PBEM (hi, Beta, you bastard!  ), then another one in the well-known 'doughnut' game (hi, Hot_Enamel, you bastard! ) and now in this game (hi, bastards, all of you...! ). Come to think of it... I have never fought a war against a human opponent that would be about my size/strenght. Always facing either a gang-bang or tech/economy-superior enemy...
Well, not whining, just explaining my reasons to prefer "less excitement" in this regard... 
If it was July/August now, I would probably be talking about how great it is that the game is thrilling again. 
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Emphasis added. Yes, it's more of a stress than excitement ATM, at least for me. This war has come in the worst time real-life-wise. The last two months of every year are extremely business intense and I would be having hard time keeping up even without having to spend so much time on this game now. |
Ah... well, I guess I'm 'lucky' here, as I lost my job at the precise moment, and decided to lay back for a while. I hope that in a month or so, the situation is reversed, at which time I'll probably resign from the PTWDG as it consumes just too much time.
quote:
All true... perhaps just the stakes are too high for me... higher than for other folks. I have spent so much time with this game that I'd totally hate losing it because of not having time to focus on it right now, when it's needed so much. And so I always spend those two or three days pretty much neglecting my real-life, juggling with numbers, calculating probabilities, running scenarios, posting plans and reports... just to have my conscience clear. If we lose because of bad RNG or because of that you and GoW are simply too much to defend against for a single tech-backward team, so be it. But losing the war and game because of not giving it what it needs now... that would leave a very bad taste in my mouth... kinda like investing my 2-year savings into some stock and then, being busy with other stuff, forgetting to watch the stock market closely, losing it all. |
I totally understand what you mean. This game has taken up so much time, that you can't mess it up, overlooking stuff. This was what happened to us in the Bobian misadventure, nobody was paying attention anymore, and we made a couple strategic mistakes. Losing a war means nothing, but knowing that it was because of silly mistakes, things that could be avoided if only a bit more time was invested... that hurts. It's been a year now, and it still hurts.
quote:
Besides... I gotta say I am getting tired of fighting desperate wars against odds. I have had one in my only individual PBEM (hi, Beta, you bastard! ), then another one in the well-known 'doughnut' game (hi, Hot_Enamel, you bastard! ) and now in this game (hi, bastards, all of you...! ). Come to think of it... I have never fought a war against a human opponent that would be about my size/strenght. Always facing either a gang-bang or tech/economy-superior enemy... |
Now here I don't agree with you. The main reason for this war is that in size/strength, Lego was the biggest, and if left alone could never be hampered again. You might think otherwise, but GS has half your land, and half your production power. And what tech is concerned: there is a reason you were left behind: we (GoW-GS) focused on this with full concentration, and still you nearly caught up.
Of course it's a gangbang, as otherwise we wouldn't even have reached your shores... and you have been invited to gangbangs before, it's just that if you don't participate from the 'giving' end, you end up being a target for the receiving end. So it's a choice you made, and one that leads to the inevitable: Civ multiplayer is not a game where you can hide on the biggest patch of land, and outbuild everyone without ever facing war. You might be tempted to do it like that, while small shrimps like GS have no other option but to expand, but if you stagnate, you die. Or in this case, get invaded, as you haven't died yet
DeepO
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Now here I don't agree with you. The main reason for this war is that in size/strength, Lego was the biggest, and if left alone could never be hampered again. You might think otherwise, but GS has half your land, and half your production power. And what tech is concerned: there is a reason you were left behind: we (GoW-GS) focused on this with full concentration, and still you nearly caught up. |
Oh, if I made an impression of feeling sort of "treated unfair" or something, then I definitely didn't mean to. The development of PtWDG was pretty much inevitable - it's almost boring how many truly unpredictable key turning points there were... having such a nice landmass for ourselves, we knew it was impossible to stay out of wars forever. The whole industrial era has been very understandable and your combined research efforts and the eventual attack were much expected. We actually started getting ready for the war on the turn you went strong vs. us.
And... mmm... yes, I believe I recall feeling like being left out of the trading loop...  We did our best, that's true, but speaking of "almost catching up" is a wee bit of exaggeration, is it not?
quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Of course it's a gangbang, as otherwise we wouldn't even have reached your shores... and you have been invited to gangbangs before, it's just that if you don't participate from the 'giving' end, you end up being a target for the receiving end. So it's a choice you made, and one that leads to the inevitable: Civ multiplayer is not a game where you can hide on the biggest patch of land, and outbuild everyone without ever facing war. You might be tempted to do it like that, while small shrimps like GS have no other option but to expand, but if you stagnate, you die. Or in this case, get invaded, as you haven't died yet |
Yes, I have come to hate this aspect of Civ MP. It's not that I'd hate wars, it's that sooner or later, you have to fight even your past friends and allies. Sorta spoils my immersion, since few true bonds are forged.
And btw... we did be on a giving end of a gang-bang, even if we did not get to actually fight. What we did to you in the Great Bobian War was a gang-bang, no less. It didn't feel any great, since from the very moment we joined GoW and ND, it was pretty much 'war over'. Yet we felt we had to do it.
So, we are only getting paid for our past deeds, in a way.
I'm not holding this against anyone - had you done anything else but joined with GoW to attack us, it would have been foolish. We did not really have twice your production power... YET. But we did have twice your land and it was only a matter of time before we'd zoom ahead again.
Anyway, we are still alive and do not plan giving up easily. We try hard to make your gang-bang go as bad as possible.
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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Besides... I gotta say I am getting tired of fighting desperate wars against odds. I have had one in my only individual PBEM (hi, Beta, you bastard! ),
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It took 3 players (me, Beta & Flandrien) to knock you down. And even then, you destroyed mine & Flandriens stacks.
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
then another one in the well-known 'doughnut' game (hi, Hot_Enamel, you bastard! )
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*ahem*
Even though my civ was "ahead", you were winning that war.
And would of won the game had I not pulled a rabbit out of a hat and took off in a spaceship.
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
and now in this game (hi, bastards, all of you...! ).
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3 games, 3 wars, and I have fought against you in every one of them
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
It took 3 players (me, Beta & Flandrien) to knock you down. And even then, you destroyed mine & Flandriens stacks. |
Yeah, I did make you bleed...  But to be fair, it must be noted you'd have been done with me much faster if Tiberius had not helped me so generously. First by giving me iron (which I used to upgrade my warriors to MI) and then even with all his troops against Beta.
quote:
Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
*ahem*
Even though my civ was "ahead", you were winning that war.
And would of won the game had I not pulled a rabbit out of a hat and took off in a spaceship. |
Hey, I did not say I was losing all those wars against odds. Just that they're all against odds... and we both know that you were a bit careless in the beginning of our war, not really caring much about the outcome anymore - only after me hitting you hard you started to really fight.
But I am now very grateful for the war we had in the DoN game - I learnt quite a few tricks which are now coming handy in Lego...
quote:
Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
3 games, 3 wars, and I have fought against you in every one of them
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Must be destiny.
I hope you all understand how I meant those bastards. 
And .
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
Oh, if I made an impression of feeling sort of "treated unfair" or something, then I definitely didn't mean to. |
You didn't sound like that, vondrack. At least not to me
quote:
having such a nice landmass for ourselves, we knew it was impossible to stay out of wars forever. The whole industrial era has been very understandable and your combined research efforts and the eventual attack were much expected. We actually started getting ready for the war on the turn you went strong vs. us. |
In hindsight, this was a bit late. We tried to camouflage it for as long as possible. It's only when we couldn't keep our defense of spears anymore that we started to upgrade, and doubled our power over the course of a few turns. It really was fear that has driven us to come out hiding. We could have mobilized only a few turns later, but in that case we would have been too early, and our tech pace wouldn't have kept up.
quote:
We did our best, that's true, but speaking of "almost catching up" is a wee bit of exaggeration, is it not? |
I'm not sure if you know how close you actually are. You're still doing 4-turn research, right? Normally, you should have been invaded 1 turn before getting tanks. Now, it's 3 or 4 turns after. Your economical power simply is too big. We had a very narrow margin of invading you, and I've got to say we missed that margin by 1 or 2 turns. Not our fault, it's just that you were too fast. And we underestimated VoX's research power (at least I did)
quote:
Yes, I have come to hate this aspect of Civ MP. It's not that I'd hate wars, it's that sooner or later, you have to fight even your past friends and allies. Sorta spoils my immersion, since few true bonds are forged. |
True. We've fought everyone so far, and in nearly all circumstances were forced to (this war no different, as we needed to do something about your rising star. Nothing personal, not at all. But it doesn't exactly creates good feeding grounds for friendship either)
quote:
And btw... we did be on a giving end of a gang-bang, even if we did not get to actually fight. What we did to you in the Great Bobian War was a gang-bang, no less. It didn't feel any great, since from the very moment we joined GoW and ND, it was pretty much 'war over'. Yet we felt we had to do it. |
Mja... I can't agree with you here. This was said too a couple of months ago, when we were discussing the Bobian fiasco. We overestimated RP's defensive power, but still did our best to get you involved on the 'right' side. You misunderstood the extent to which we were willing to go, and faced the other direction. That alone disturbed the balance. Actually joining the other party made it a gang bang for sure. It broke us, and no matter the outcome of this war, we will never recuperate. We are doomed to stay small.
That doesn't mean that this war is in any way us seeking revenge. We understand your position. But by putting the 3 other powers against each other (at that moment, RP was nearly death without serious help), you also inevitably made sure you were next. If it wasn't from our side, GoW and ND would have joined on you. In hindsight, you cuold have avoided this war, if you took our offer, and went for GoW-ND instead. It would have meant to get your hands dirty, and the gains wouldn't have been big (we were hoping for 3 or 4 cities on Bob, preferably with some lux or resources, you could have gotten the same), but it would have created a stress spot. In case another war was fought, it would have been on Bob, for those small territories of both us and you. With Bob off limits, there was only one place to look to... Legoland. Because there is nothing to gain on Stormia, we even lack half the resources, and our land is moderate at best.
quote:
I'm not holding this against anyone - had you done anything else but joined with GoW to attack us, it would have been foolish. We did not really have twice your production power... YET. But we did have twice your land and it was only a matter of time before we'd zoom ahead again. |
I think you are still doing a bit of wrong analysis. There were IIRC 2 or 3 turns, after the Bobian war, when we were ahead in production. Right when we built Hoover (and, if I dare to say, also due to extremely efficient RRing), and the first turn of mobilization (with all our cities having factories). We very quickly felt to 4th place. Not 2nd as you might think, not third, but 4th. We knew this was going to happen, but in mobilization, while we should be ahead of all of you because of our focus on workers, factories and Hoover... it amazed us. Your production power has been double ours for a while now, if you straigthen out the comparison (meaning mobilization everywhere).
You all laughed when we said a couple of turns ago that we're the 4th, minor power. In reality, this has been true for a long while. It's only extreme focus which gave us the strongest army... at the expense of quite a few other things. This very well might be our final moment, and we decided to make it a glorious one. Now if only you'd like to cooperate a little...
DeepO
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
quote:
having such a nice landmass for ourselves, we knew it was impossible to stay out of wars forever. The whole industrial era has been very understandable and your combined research efforts and the eventual attack were much expected. We actually started getting ready for the war on the turn you went strong vs. us. |
In hindsight, this was a bit late. We tried to camouflage it for as long as possible. It's only when we couldn't keep our defense of spears anymore that we started to upgrade, and doubled our power over the course of a few turns. It really was fear that has driven us to come out hiding. We could have mobilized only a few turns later, but in that case we would have been too early, and our tech pace wouldn't have kept up. |
It seems to me that most of us missed a right moment or two... we were sort of happy to build stuff and kinda did not think of the war to come, since it seemed to be so far into the future. It was only you going strong that got me worried and made me ring an alarm in Lego. It might have been too late, but even if we had started few turns before, the situation wouldn't be all that different from what it is now, I believe. The most important thing was we slowed our research for about 2t, IIRC, upgraded our military (mostly arty), and started threwing much more into the military production.
Alas, in hindsight, it was still not enough - our military, even though sort of ready, is still kinda dwarfed by your combined forces. I was overly optimistic seeing how we get closer and closer to tanks...
quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
quote:
We did our best, that's true, but speaking of "almost catching up" is a wee bit of exaggeration, is it not? |
I'm not sure if you know how close you actually are. You're still doing 4-turn research, right? Normally, you should have been invaded 1 turn before getting tanks. Now, it's 3 or 4 turns after. Your economical power simply is too big. We had a very narrow margin of invading you, and I've got to say we missed that margin by 1 or 2 turns. Not our fault, it's just that you were too fast. And we underestimated VoX's research power (at least I did) |
I kinda agree that you missed the right moment. Had you invaded, say, 10 turns earlier, with half your forces, it would have been much worse for us that it is now (yes, even worse than it is now). We'd probably be already dead by now.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
quote:
And btw... we did be on a giving end of a gang-bang, even if we did not get to actually fight. What we did to you in the Great Bobian War was a gang-bang, no less. It didn't feel any great, since from the very moment we joined GoW and ND, it was pretty much 'war over'. Yet we felt we had to do it. |
Mja... I can't agree with you here. This was said too a couple of months ago, when we were discussing the Bobian fiasco. We overestimated RP's defensive power, but still did our best to get you involved on the 'right' side. You misunderstood the extent to which we were willing to go, and faced the other direction. That alone disturbed the balance. Actually joining the other party made it a gang bang for sure. It broke us, and no matter the outcome of this war, we will never recuperate. We are doomed to stay small. |
Note the word "felt" in my post... Only future will tell whether it was a good or bad move on our part (and maybe not even the future). It's impossible to say what the world would look like had we stayed out of the Great Bobian War, or even joined/supported you & RP... though I'll grant you we most probably misunderstood the extent to which you wanted to expand onto Bob. Ya'know, it's difficult to believe that "you'd only want 3-4 cities". Even if you honestly meant it, there was no way we could have believed that without acting like fools actually...
quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
I think you are still doing a bit of wrong analysis. There were IIRC 2 or 3 turns, after the Bobian war, when we were ahead in production. Right when we built Hoover (and, if I dare to say, also due to extremely efficient RRing), and the first turn of mobilization (with all our cities having factories). We very quickly felt to 4th place. Not 2nd as you might think, not third, but 4th. We knew this was going to happen, but in mobilization, while we should be ahead of all of you because of our focus on workers, factories and Hoover... it amazed us. Your production power has been double ours for a while now, if you straigthen out the comparison (meaning mobilization everywhere). |
I knew that getting into this little chit-chat could gain us some new information... I have to honestly say that what you are saying is MAJOR news for us. We have always assumed it was you being the big guy (yeah, sorry, MZ, you just don't get the respect you rightfully deserve ...and ND must have been laughing at many a statement from Lego, too  ) - because of the Hoover and all. And frankly, it is only now that the numbers make sense. Note to self: when your numbers seem to be slightly off , don't be lazy and investigate deeper.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
You all laughed when we said a couple of turns ago that we're the 4th, minor power. In reality, this has been true for a long while. It's only extreme focus which gave us the strongest army... at the expense of quite a few other things. This very well might be our final moment, and we decided to make it a glorious one. Now if only you'd like to cooperate a little... |
Hm. I guess we (Lego) have a lot of thought food for today...
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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You should have joined the builder team, MZ... building is boring as hell, but can still keep you mildly entertained if you are builder in your heart.
I am quite proud to say that my teammates are big help. Even if it may sometimes look like Lego is "that vondrack's team", it is in fact very different. Yes, I do most of the "dirty turn-to-turn work", but the feedback and ideas coming from Tiberius, Kloreep, Zargon, redstar1, lmtoops, and others are totally invaluable - those make the difference between what vondrack is able to be and what Lego is.
Proud to be a Lego.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
You should have joined the builder team, MZ... building is boring as hell, but can still keep you mildly entertained if you are builder in your heart.
I am quite proud to say that my teammates are big help. Even if it may sometimes look like Lego is "that vondrack's team", it is in fact very different. Yes, I do most of the "dirty turn-to-turn work", but the feedback and ideas coming from Tiberius, Kloreep, Zargon, redstar1, lmtoops, and others are totally invaluable - those make the difference between what vondrack is able to be and what Lego is.
Proud to be a Lego. |
I'm an insane diplomat at heart much more than a builder or warmonger, therefore GoW fit me perfectly. That should be all the more obvious given my contribution to the ISDG and the earlier part of this game
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09-12-2004 20:15
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