02-12-2004 01:19									#1
	The Golden Age of other civs Tired of ads?

Does anyone know how to tell if another civ has had their golden age?

I'm on a peninsula bordering one other civ: the Dutch. It is the early medieval age and my only way to expand is through them. However, the Dutch have that accursed 4 defense Swiss Mercenary which has kept me from attacking them. Although they've been in a couple wars with other civs, I don't want to be the fool to trigger their GA, especially since they are the strongest civ right now.

	02-12-2004 01:56									#2
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Not w/o some trickery. You could retire and watch the replay - that shows when GAs are triggered.

If they've fought other civs post-feudalism, I'd bet they've had it already.

-Arrian

	02-12-2004 02:13									#3
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I have npt tried this, but if you are far enough along to have a spy, you should be able to investigate a city. This will give you level set to use to see if they double production.

You will have to factor in the level cost.

Before that you may be able to use the F11 screen to judge it.

If it is very early you could try to build an embassy to see the production of the capitol.

There may be other way via the trade screen. The pace of their research. The cost of a tech dropping can tip of the pace.

These are just some off the top of my head idea and may be bogus.

	02-12-2004 08:25									#4
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Check the F7 screen to see if they have the wonders to trigger a GA, too.

Oh, and BTW most/all of vmxa's suggestions can work, but they will only tell you if they are in their GA, not if they've had it, which is generally far more difficult to determine.

	02-12-2004 14:15									#5
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If they have at least one elite UU...

	02-12-2004 19:30									#6
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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to try them.

With most civs you can usually guess that they've had their GA shortly after their first war with their UU. But with a defensive UU like the Swiss Mercenary, it's not always so clear, especially in my game since the civ in question seems to be winning most of its wars, i.e. they are on offense most of the time.

As an aside, does anyone else think the Swiss Mercenary is an amazing bargain? You get the practical equivalent of a Musketman at the beginning of the Middle Ages for half the price and no need for Saltpeter. Not to mention a perfectly timed GA for grabbing those very desirable early Middle Ages wonders.

	02-12-2004 20:24									#7
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Plus two amazing traits. One of the best civs, IMO (probably 2nd only to Iroq.)

	02-12-2004 21:15									#8
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I think militaristic is the most important trait at higher levels.

Jeff, is that your picture in your avatar?

	02-12-2004 21:20									#9
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Yeah, it is.
I think Militaristic is the most useless trait generally, though I can see its value at the highest level.

	11-12-2004 21:39									#10
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Love the dutch. just an awesome combo of traits and a decent uu, though defensive in nature.

	13-12-2004 01:31									#11
	Re: The Golden Age of other civs Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Without cheating:

Establish an embassy as soon as possible with every player.

Note when they first have the ability to build their UU and also the wonder combos.

If they have just built a wonder and now have both traights, they are now in the GA unless they had it previously. Using the embassy on their cheapest city will tell you which in the case.

If they declare war or are declared war upon and have the ability to build their UU, it can safely be assumed that if they haven't had their GA already ready, they will start one shortly.

So, if you've had an embassy with the Dutch since the late ancient era, you'll know if they could possibly have done something that trigured it by now.

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Does anyone know how to tell if another civ has had their golden age? I'm on a peninsula bordering one other civ: the Dutch. It is the early medieval age and my only way to expand is through them. However, the Dutch have that accursed 4 defense Swiss Mercenary which has kept me from attacking them. Although they've been in a couple wars with other civs, I don't want to be the fool to trigger their GA, especially since they are the strongest civ right now.

	21-12-2004 19:57									#12
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Why donīt you ally with them against someone else and let them waste their GA? Then you will be able to attack

	22-12-2004 01:09									#13
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That's what I ended up doing. I fortified the entrance to my peninsula and bribed their neighbor, the Celts into an alliance. The Celts had iron and horses for knights and pikemen. The Dutch only had iron for medieval infantry and their swiss mercenaries. Neither side could gain any ground. Quite the bloody slugfest.

Meanwhile, I found saltpeter on an island but unfortunately it had to go through the Dutch to get it home. I bided my time building knights and trebuchets and Leo's workshop. After 20 turns I got peace with the Dutch and slowly embarked on a massive trebuchet to cannon upgrade plus a few pikes to muskets. I didn't have military tradition yet so cavalry. Once I upgraded 30 or so cannon, I vanquished the Dutch with the help of the Celts again.

Still not done with the game and now it is the Industrial Age. The Celts are now the strongest although we are equal in tech. They got Infantry right when I did. I'll have to wait it out for Tanks.

	22-12-2004 02:16									#14
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You really don't even have to investigate their city, if memory serves. Right-click a tile on which you know what the production should be, for instance a mined hill or mined grassland, and check the shield count. If it's grass and giving one shield, you know they aren't currently in their GA, and so forth. It's not, as said above, going to tell you if they've already finished it, but do it periodically and you should catch them in it.

	22-12-2004 03:48									#15
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The tile inspecting on the big map will tell you if YOUR in a GA, not the AI owning the tile. It's always how much you would get for it.

	22-12-2004 07:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Still not done with the game and now it is the Industrial Age. The Celts are now the strongest although we are equal in tech. They got Infantry right when I did. I'll have to wait it out for Tanks.

Well, you do have 30 cannons - which can become 30 artilleries. With some cavalry and some infantry, you can wage war with those with pretty good results - I went through a similar situation, while that gray timeline between Replaceable Parts and Motorized Transportation was passing and I was grabbing resources, luxuries and cool cities.

Sure, it's a pretty slow war, but is nice if you like to mess up with positioning and tactics.

	22-12-2004 08:49									#17
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Some clarity between Solomonwi's and joncnunn's posts would be good... I thought that the first was perhaps an excellent point, unless of course jon is correct.

My answer is simple, and perhaps a PITA, but worth it: Check F11 EVERY TURN when opponents (whether AI or human) might have a chance of kicking off their GA. So, GWs, UUs, etc., are the notifiers... it's not as hard as it sounds. A GA will be quite evident, if you look for it.

	23-12-2004 05:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Some clarity between Solomonwi's and joncnunn's posts would be good... I thought that the first was perhaps an excellent point, unless of course jon is correct.

It's twue, it's twue [/LilliVonShtupp]

I just tested it by checking the same tile (mined regular grass at Persepolis, still in Persian hands) before and after starting my own GA, and sure enough, even though it was an enemy tile being worked, the values reflected my GA. Oh, well.

	23-12-2004 20:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by pedrojedi Well, you do have 30 cannons - which can become 30 artilleries. With some cavalry and some infantry, you can wage war with those with pretty good results - I went through a similar situation, while that gray timeline between Replaceable Parts and Motorized Transportation was passing and I was grabbing resources, luxuries and cool cities. Sure, it's a pretty slow war, but is nice if you like to mess up with positioning and tactics.

That's what I don't like about the Replaceable Parts to Motorized Transport time: slow slugfest wars. I want to keep Republic to get me to tanks quickly and I know the Celts probably have 40+ cavalry hanging around. That's at least 80 WW points when they attack, even if I don't lose any units. In addition, they have a similar number of infantry (they are Fascist) which will slowly but surely head for my poorly defended inner cities. I'll need most of the artillery to force them to turn around.

Finally, I know that the large Celtic empire has but a single oil resource and noone else has a surplus. I know I will beat them to Motorized Transport by at least 10 turns because they are still at war with the now puny Dutch which means they will stay in Fascism (stupid AI). That should give me enough time build up a bunch of tanks and then take out their oil so that they can't build any at all.

This game has been a frustration for me. I decided to play the Iroquios, a nice easy civ, since I've been having trouble with Emporer as of late. Well, sure enough, no horses and only 1 lux. Stuck on a small penisula with the Sumerians of all people: 10 shield enkidu warrior means no Archer rush or plinking settler/warrior teams. Finally beat the Sumerians with swordsmen although I triggered their GA. Alas, their land was all mountains, plains, desert and no water - although they did have a lux. What's the good of playing an agricultural civ with no water?

Meanwhile the Dutch sealed me off so I couldn't settle beyond the penisula. Gave suicide galleys a try: turned out to be unnecessary. Although I asked for continents, I got just two big ones separated by just 2 sea tiles. Everyone found everyone else really quickly. So much for exclusive trade deals.

Although I did eventually find horses on an island, it had to go through the Celts and Dutch to get home and my only war option was with the Dutch. By the time I found those horses, the Dutch were already in the Middle Ages and so they had swiss mercenaries. And the Great Wall. Oh, and their two border cities were on hills. ARGHHH!!! I ask you: what are the odds of getting two neighboring civs that both get extremely cheap and powerful defensive UUs plus mostly hilly and mountainous terrain?