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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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Originally posted by Trip
The more I think about this, the more feasible it seems. |
Good. That's all I could wish for 
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I went and counted all the tiles facing the coast, and it's something like 183 (I forget the number... I always count it and then end up forgetting within seconds...  ). We have 84 units now, and we can possibly assume 20 from CFC. That means about 80 left to build. Simply using Warriors will fill this up quite easily |
The only problem with warriors is that you are practically throwing them away once the sea wall has fulfilled its purpose. Cats and defenders are the best units, as they will upgrade to something useful once marines are near.
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, and we could possibly even leave gaps in certain places that we know will be secure, and plug them in a pinch with Workers in case we see something coming. |
Most certainly yes!
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I don't know what the upgrade costs would be, but it would be about equal. The only problem is that Cavalry are very powerful during amphibious assaults (for obvious reasons by now, I hope everyone in here realizes). |
Yes, I agree. With cavs, GS didn't need to use the settler blitz, as cavs would have gotten to the exact same Lego cities without one settler spent. However, is there anything in the rules prohibiting settlerblitzes, and apart from the obvious bad memories for Lego members, does anyone wants to rule out such a powerful game mechanic? You can be sure GCA and GWT wouldn't if they were given the chance.
Compare the cost of upgrading and researching the tech, to the cost of a couple of settlers and a transport to get them where they need to be. Besides, what is CFC researching right now, can't they be put on 40-turn Mil Trad research?
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I know the use of Granary outside of pump usage may shock you DeepO, but it does in fact help out in general growth quite a bit as well.  |
It's not a shock, Trip. It's just that I'm convinced that my way is better here. Towns might grow on their own in certain situations, cities should never be allowed to grow on their own. I know it's ugly, but this is civ. Shields are the hardest resource to get in civ, and everything should be focused on that. Food is much easier in comparison, as you can specialize cities into worker pumps.
And if you don't believe me, look at Legoland / GS. Even if at the beginning our focus was not so singleminded, GS has always had a bigger population than Lego, up until the time where we simply were using all tiles, and had nowhere to grow to. Now, who had the pyramids again? Switch starting spots, and give Lego, on Stormia, the pyramids and GS some 5-7 worker pumps on Legoland (we had 3 for most growth time on Stormia), and the difference would have been much bigger even. All I'm saying is that is not too late to catch up with GWT.
DeepO
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
The only problem with warriors is that you are practically throwing them away once the sea wall has fulfilled its purpose. Cats and defenders are the best units, as they will upgrade to something useful once marines are near. |
Upgrade costs are something we need to be very very wary of... It is likely this game will come down to who can generate the most cash and spend it wisest. I don't think we can afford to upgrading 80 Numidians...
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Yes, I agree. With cavs, GS didn't need to use the settler blitz, as cavs would have gotten to the exact same Lego cities without one settler spent. However, is there anything in the rules prohibiting settlerblitzes, and apart from the obvious bad memories for Lego members, does anyone wants to rule out such a powerful game mechanic? You can be sure GCA and GWT wouldn't if they were given the chance.
Compare the cost of upgrading and researching the tech, to the cost of a couple of settlers and a transport to get them where they need to be. Besides, what is CFC researching right now, can't they be put on 40-turn Mil Trad research? |
There may be some cases when it won't be possible to build Settlers and only Cav will be feasible to strike hard enough. GWT has a fairly tight system of city spacing, and in order to get very far it would require a highly inconvenient number of Settlers. Simply the 30 horse-guys we have now as Cavalry would be a very devastating weapon.
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It's not a shock, Trip. It's just that I'm convinced that my way is better here. Towns might grow on their own in certain situations, cities should never be allowed to grow on their own. I know it's ugly, but this is civ. Shields are the hardest resource to get in civ, and everything should be focused on that. Food is much easier in comparison, as you can specialize cities into worker pumps.
And if you don't believe me, look at Legoland / GS. Even if at the beginning our focus was not so singleminded, GS has always had a bigger population than Lego, up until the time where we simply were using all tiles, and had nowhere to grow to. Now, who had the pyramids again? Switch starting spots, and give Lego, on Stormia, the pyramids and GS some 5-7 worker pumps on Legoland (we had 3 for most growth time on Stormia), and the difference would have been much bigger even. All I'm saying is that is not too late to catch up with GWT. |
It depends on your setup. In the C3C ISDG the nature of things meant that the cities grew up rather quickly on their own, even without Worker adds. The terrain meant that it wasn't a very good idea to use up Workers on that sort of thing, but with a few pumps we've reached an extreme number of Workers (I believe we're up to 50 now, and it's only 190 BC).
Without the Pyramids, we'd be much weaker, and that's with using pumps.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Upgrade costs are something we need to be very very wary of... It is likely this game will come down to who can generate the most cash and spend it wisest. I don't think we can afford to upgrading 80 Numidians... |
well, it's a bit early to decide this, but you might very well be right. However, consider them as reserve: In case of an invasion, it's relatively easy to stop all research, and upgrade whatever you have laying around. Mercs might be costly, but art is also important. In many cases, it pays off to build a bank instead of 2 arts, and keep that bank running for a couple of turns, meanwhile keeping cats nearby which can upgrade. There is no definate answer here, it will depend on whether we can generate more shields, or gold. It should be so that shileds become the problem instead of gold, but you never know.
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There may be some cases when it won't be possible to build Settlers and only Cav will be feasible to strike hard enough. GWT has a fairly tight system of city spacing, and in order to get very far it would require a highly inconvenient number of Settlers. Simply the 30 horse-guys we have now as Cavalry would be a very devastating weapon. |
Oh, but I agree. However, again, can't CFC research Mil Trad in 40 turns? And even if they can't, I'm sure that 3 or more 4 more settlers will get you to most of those city sites (only the cities in the middle of hills remain a problem, but then again, those cities don't produce anything decent either). As these only need to be produced when the empire is maxed out in both production (RR, factories, Hoover) as in pop (if we still have unused land tiles when RRs come, we deserve to lose because of lack of pumps), the cost of an extra settler is neglible.
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It depends on your setup. In the C3C ISDG the nature of things meant that the cities grew up rather quickly on their own, even without Worker adds. The terrain meant that it wasn't a very good idea to use up Workers on that sort of thing, but with a few pumps we've reached an extreme number of Workers (I believe we're up to 50 now, and it's only 190 BC). |
I'm not involved in the C3C ISDG, but with the terrain in this game pumps rule over pyramids.
However, that is not really the issue right now. We don't have the pyramids. So, the question becomes how to catch up, and become better than GWT. There is only one solution: pumps. I'm confident that with enough of them, we can out-pop GWT. You don't... no matter, the least we can do is to try to catch up, and we only have one tool. Let's use that to the max.
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Without the Pyramids, we'd be much weaker, and that's with using pumps. |
I doubt it, but I'm willing to believe you. It's just that while you're building or prebuilding the pyramids, you can build in total 6 granaries, and 5 settlers. By the time the pyramids kick in, those extra cities could be running as pumps, and have doubled your empire already. No matter how foody your terrain, there is no way to catch up.
But, it depends on situation... if you're cramped in between aggressive civs, you might not be able to defend 5 extra pumps, where you might be able to defend 1 pyarmid cities. However... double your cities, and you also double your production capacity, leading to double the amount of defenders...
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
We have 5 worker pumps now with 3 more coming online very soon. It's nearly time to start adding workers into some cities that can handle the increase in size so we can maximize production there. |
Now this is the kind of news I like!
BF, I'm sure you're aware of this, but to make things easier for the consuls, you should do the following:
- all cities should get +0 fpt if possible, +1 fpt otherwise (so no 'extra' irrigation, and in case there aren't enough shields, forest grass to compensate (using hills is better, of course))
- further, instead of growing cities to the max just because they can, plan it so your cities get to e.g. 10 spt, 15 spt, or 20 spt. (12 and 17 are also options, as are 5 and 7). Once they are there, these need no further MMing, and can happily build stuff without loss.
- prioritize those cities which are either barracks-cities (20 spt would be perfect for e.g. cat builds), or which are behind in building. Do not prioritize because one city has its improvements built, and another hasn't. If the terrain is not ready around a city, move more workers in instead.
Doing so should make it a lot easier... a 10 spt, 0 fpt city is a stable one, and never needs to be looked at again unless you're looking for other ways of spending workers.
DeepO
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:17
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I think, after looking at the last save, that we need to re-examine a great may things
Today, I just opened the save for the first time in months. I see some good things and I see some very bad ones, too. To start off, GCA now has Copernagus (with a leader from CFC) and we are now at war (with the accompaning WW Bonus). Our Wonder Prebuilds (especially in HoD) are a shambles and out timing of our GA, not to mention, out ability to get into the next age and survive up to the later Industrial are seriously, seriously jepardized. Some of that blame, I can rest on my shoulders, as I never really did anything to help transition (but then, I DID have some extenuating curcomstances, too).
Some observations (and some are now moot, as the turn has already been played):
AP - I hope that it's showing to be building ST and not JSB. As of this turn (830 AD - not even a separate turnthread for this turn, what are our leaders even doing??), we are 19 turns away from the 600 Shield mark. BUT, GWT is also building ST (and it might be a prebuild for JSB, Please not...), but it would very, very likely be built fairly soon, by all indications (IF they did a stealth prebuild first which is likely).
We need to try to take advantage of the WW Bonus, while we can, and Keep that Bonus for as long as we can. We can change AP's WF to 1-4-6-9-10-14-15-16-17-19-20 (at -1 Food Surpluss) and ASAP, add 1 worker to the city. This will get us that Wonder (and our GA) on turn 224 / 915 AD (which is 1 turn after we were originally shooting for. This will require us to get Eco (and Banking) very soon. This will allow the GA to help speed up Production of Mags in HoD (which is way, way behind).
If we don;t do this, I am fearful that we will lose out on the last of the Middle Ages Wonders (and the game). If GWT gets Mags, we won;t be able to stop an Invasion fleet (no matter when it comes) and if they get both that AND Smiths, we might as well give up, as they will beat us to TOE and Hoovers (as those our our next chances of Triggering our GA - way, way too late).
Bananatopia should Let the Uni build finish and either start on a Bank Prebuild or starting look at Mil Units, until the time that we can look at a TOE/Hoovers Prebuild for this city. I think that we need the Mil Units for now....
Anyways, some thoughts. I was also in chat with WIA and he might post that soon.
E_T
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17-12-2004 23:14
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