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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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Is it Christmass alreadY? Wow... time flies when you're having a PTWDG war on your hand.
BF, people are still following this forum. However, it is not exactly easy to give any comments, when no questions are asked. It's been several months, but only a few turns ago when we had some discusion on worker pumps, and on how to tweak the empire so that MMing would be reduced to a minimum. AFAIK, nothing has been done with that information, but I can't deduce what you're up to with the save from the screenshots (I don't follow chats, if these still happen). So, what do you expect as feedback?
Don't get me wrong, I do not say you need to invest more time in housekeeping, logging, and administration jobs, I prefer you play the game instead. However, without someone doing that part, you can't expect any of the members to comment, as you're the only one knowing what's going on. There is no build plan anymore, no information on where we are tech wise, and invasions of other countries are only mentioned after they actually happen. What kind of comments do you expect?
DeepO
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Don't get me wrong, I do not say you need to invest more time in housekeeping, logging, and administration jobs, I prefer you play the game instead. However, without someone doing that part, you can't expect any of the members to comment, as you're the only one knowing what's going on. There is no build plan anymore, no information on where we are tech wise, and invasions of other countries are only mentioned after they actually happen. What kind of comments do you expect?
DeepO |
You forgot and no MOI, NO FAM and NO MOW.
Essentially no help for BF and I have my hands full at the C3C ISDG.
Do I detect a possible volunteer? 
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
You forgot and no MOI, NO FAM and NO MOW.
Essentially no help for BF and I have my hands full at the C3C ISDG. |
I know, and again, I was not trying to have any critique on BF. But you have to agree that nobody can comment on anything, if no info is given, or no plans are made. Without this climate, nobody can get involved, even if they want to.
quote:
Do I detect a possible volunteer? |
No thanks. I've had more than my hands full with GS. In that team, there is no MOI, FAM or MOW either, and not 3 consuls but one player only. However I am proud to have created enough of the framework needed, so that many team members are very active. At a certain point, everyone starts to add to the framework, so that it starts running itself... and as long as something is happening in the game, people stay interested.
Main problems in the ISDG are of course the long breaks in between turns. A month of free time means everyone will have lost interest. After such a period, someone has to come forward, and start over again, giving more info than strictly needed to try to involve more people. Without that, there won't be any team involvement, it's as simple as that. It's logical to assume one of the consuls volunteers for the job... they are most commited to the game anyway. But of course, it's better to get this game played, than it is to make sure others can comment on things, leaving no time to play the game. It's all about priorities 
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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Trip, how many units do we currently have, 80 or so? Add 150, and you still get to perfect safety for 230 gpt. That's not that extraordinary a cost. For every cav, you can build 3.5 horses. 50 cavs = 175 horses. So the shield cost is obvious. The extra gold, can be easily generated by not going for mil trad: 4 turns of research will pay for the extra upkeep. And while cavs do not give perfect safety, horses do.
As to mobile sea walls: fine, certainly at first. you need scouting grids anyway, maybe not now, but at least when marines come. Although they don't really protect you: every civ will try to take out most of our scoutng grid, so we still don't know where to put up defenses.
DeepO
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:17
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We currently have 85 military units, and total support costs of 141 right now.
If we build 150 more units that will increase our costs to approximately 300. We can currently run at 70% science (429 beakers per turn), but with the extra support costs we'd have to drop to 40% (239 beakers per turn). That is a dramatic drop. We need every single gold we can to try and compete with GWT into the future!
Keep in mind they have the Pyramids and a huge population and gold advantage on us. It is likely they will maintain 4-turn research the rest of the game. If we're burdened with so many units to support as to be forced to drop to 40% science we'll never keep up. They'll probably send scouts, see our wall, realize we're lagging in science, surpass us and never come by anyways. If they get ahead of us in techs they don't even need to worry about invading, particularly with GCA increasing in strength.
CFC is horrible at this game and they're not worth much to us. GCA will help GWT more simply because of the fact that they'll have much more land and it will be better developed. We need to be assured that we'll make it into the next couple eras (mobile sea wall) and a tech lead in order to stick it to them when we get the chance. I think our only shot at this is to get Marines, Tanks, etc. and demolish their FP. We know where it is, and Marines + Settlers can take it out in a single turn. Another offensive could take out their core as well. The point is that we have to remain ahead in techs and get to Marines, etc. first. If we don't, then we've already lost.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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Trip, you're talking about extra 50 cavs, right? So the difference as opposed to 150 sea wall units is 'only' 100 gpt. No need for extra scouts is another 10 odd gpt, so 90 gpt. No need for Mil Trad (1536 beakers?), so for the first 17 turns or so, this is free... by which time the game should have caught up anyway.
Think long term.
Sea wall:
- no upgrades for units until marines.
- Faster in research (at least at first).
- More shields to spend on e.g. workers, which have a huge effect on both commerce and production.
The pyramids is a good point, btw. I don't believe in that wonder, if you play your game well. This has been discussed here before, so I'm nog going to repeat things, but a good, working worker-pump focus is far better than the pyramids. This will be the only way to overtake them in population, and with that comes the commerce which makes a sea wall not only possible, but even preferred.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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Trip, I won't argue that there might be more costs involved, but I will argue for the cost of absolute safety. A sea wall provides that. A scouting grid and mobile defense doesn't. All it takes is to take out most of the scouting grid in the first turn, and you simply don't know where they would strike... at which point your 50 cavs are practically useless. They only are meaningfull if the extra movement can be used to keep GWT / GCA from landing, not for attacking troops.
gold costs: I don't agree here. Sure, for those first 17 turns it's obvious, but afterwards there is more gain too. I'm not certain how far we are in the tech tree (apart of getting Metallurgy next turn), but if in those 17 turns you can get to steam, you gain in shields, as faster RRs are worth more than gold. (Steam is the tech to watch for, Marines are not that important) If those 17 turns make it possible to build Newton's a couple of turns faster, you gain in beakers. If other wonders are sped up, you gain there (Smith's, e.g.)
Further, those 17 turns is the minimum, in reality it will be a lot closer to 25 turns, even 30 turns maybe. It takes time to build those units. You won't need gold to upgrade 28 knights and 22 horsies. You won't need gold to upgrade defenders.
As to shield cost: you're twisting my words. I meant to use the extra shields to set up extra worker pumps, not relying on the pumps that exist now (which are not enough anyway). 1 extra pump, gives over those same 17 turns 8 extra workers. 8 workers give on average 16 cpt, and 8 spt. So again, the effect stretches out... those 17 turns before, go up to 30 at least, which in turn provides 15 extra workers, or an extra 30 cpt, etc. The effect blows up the longer you wait.
Pyramids: They're simply useless, cost inefficient if the game is played right by the other side. The only reason why they are powerful is because people do not rely on worker pumps enough. And don't tell me they can make worker pumps of all your cities, I know that... but for the cost of the pyramids, you get nearly 7 granaries in cities of your choice, instead of having to put away one big city especially for this. The only exceptions are when playing the Egyptians and needing the pyramids for your GA, or when you get an early GL, and want to build a wonder instead of an army.
Last thing:
quote:
That's like saying we'll save shields in Mingapulco if we don't build any ships. |
 If you don't build ships, you are saving shields in Mingapulco... shields not 'wasted' on ships can be used everywhere, especially in barracks cities. And given the mobility of pop (workers, workers, workers!), it can mean that instead of a coastal city, Mingapulco can be faster pop-boosted... which gives more shields in the city, even if it only produces wonders and buildings.
Oh, and don't discuss semantics here, I know there is a limit. If Mingapulco is already at max size, this comparison stops. But in that case, I'm sure you can find a land city which does benefit from the saved shields from never-built ships.
DeepO
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