03-12-2004 01:19									#1
	AU Peace Deity Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

First off, sorry for starting another divergent thread.

This is somewhat in response to a PM I received:

quote: Originally posted by 1889 Hi Punkbass, I just noticed your training succession game thread and am waiting to get some time to read through. I’m pretty good on emperor level though, so don’t intend to play, but your introduction intrigued me. I’ve currently lost every game I played on Demi-God, but am improving slowly. I was wondering if you’d like to show us how you beat deity with the AU mod and without taking any cities! I was thinking of another succession game or just posting some saves. Thanks, 1889

I was inclined, initially, to simply point 1889 towards my game that I posted a couple years ago, which was series of saves w/o writeups, as well as being stock and Vanilla (do note that in the referenced thread I only claimed to be able to do it with stock). I have since decided, clearly, to start up and document a new game.

In the interests of saving my time, I've taken a few shortcuts, as C3C and AU make for probably a one level increase since I last did this (well, a Demi-god > Deity sort of increase, this won't be playing like Sid Mon > Emp would be a good comparison as well). Like last time, I am choosing my civ, the Dutch (last time was Egypt, an irony which will be ecplained shortly). Last time I took a Small Archipelago as I want a fairly quick game and not too many opponents, without the constraints and distortions of a Tiny map. I also made it 80% water, Normal, Temperate and 5 billion, in the interest of getting a fairly good map. I also restarted ~5 times in order to get a good start, whereas last time I went all random in these categories and played the first map I got. Essentialloy, I don't play SP Civ like I used to, and I want a fairly winnable game that I can do quickly. I also want to document as I go, rather than doing this until I win and then coming back with my notes. Barbs are Random, BTW.

I also chose my opponents, China, America, Japan, Egypt (!) and Arabia. This shows the dramatic changes to both Rel and Ind since Vanilla, as I previous took Egypt as my builder civ and now want them as my builder opponent. Here's my rationale: I don't want Agr (obviously), Com, Sea or Sci in my opponents (and there are few enough that this isn't too limiting. Com/Sea both star with Alph, which is no good, as well being generally good traits (I didn't choose the Dutch for nothing!) Sea is used poorly by the AI, but the more I can keep contacts down, the slower the tech pace, which is why I want no Sci civs either. Mil and Rel are on the verge of useless for a Deity AI, and Ind is not as great as it used to be. Exp. is good because it's a small map, of course, though its one caveat is they start with Pottery, which is the only tech I want to trade for the first 50 turns (well, 40 anyway).

So here's the start:

	03-12-2004 01:21									#2
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Not too much to do right away:

4000BC Settle on the spot, irrigate cow. Begin Worker, at 5 and 5, no point in building warrior as if it would save this game then it is a lost cause anyhow.
Writing in 50, 3gpt.
Hut gave map, BTW, another cow spotted in the NW and Incense in the NE. Hate to call it so early, but I think I've got a win .

Attachment: audeitypeacecow.jpg
This has been downloaded 139 time(s).

	03-12-2004 01:23									#3
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Not a lot of time left today, but here's where I'm at up to 3000BC:

3750BC Worker2 finished, start settler. Worker2 goes W to road and irrigate.
American scout spotted in NE. Decide not to trade Alph. just yet.

3600BC Worker1 finishes improving cow, goes E to chop. Settler ETA of five turns.

3350BC Settler completes, another worker is in order. Worker2 finishes improvements and goes W to cow. Worker1 begins mining BG found under chopped forest. America has since discovered BW in addition to Masonry.

3300BC Rotterdam founded, begins granary.

3150BC Worker3 completes, granary started up. Goes SE to chop.

3000BC Warrior and 2 settlers (American) seen passing us by, seemingly ignoring the incense. Probably headed for some strat resource.

Attachment: audeitypeace3000bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 139 time(s).

	03-12-2004 01:57									#4
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2950BC Worker2 done with cow, goes to chop spice forest.

2900BC Worker1/3 finish tasks and go to mine BG revealed SE of Amsterdam.

2710 Worker 1/2 finsh tasks and go to mine BG S of Amsterdam. Worker3 roads where he is.

2590BC Amsterdam completes Granary with 18 food in box, begins Settler. Worker3 heads to Spice.

2510BC Rotterdam finishes Granary, begins Settler. Number 1 in pop, Productivity and MFG Goods, BTW. Third for GNP.

2470BC Worker1/2 head to Grass W of Incense to mine.

2430BC Worker3 completes Spice road .
Amsterdam completes Settler, which heads to incense. Start curragh for contacts program . Upon reaching the hill, I decide to settle one tile N of incense and road the hilld with W1/2, which slightly throws things off, but it's worth it for a nice chokepoint, IMO, even though I also lose the hills def bonus, which I wanted for that city. Worker3 begins mining Spice. Things look like this:

Attachment: audeitypeaceincense.jpg
This has been downloaded 132 time(s).

	03-12-2004 02:00									#5
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And the save for anyone interested.

Attachment: aupeace2430 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	03-12-2004 02:14									#6
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What about 4000bc save? Too bad that it is peaceful game, Americans really need to be archer-rushed. You just have no land!

Edit: on the bright side, barbarian uprisings will not be an issue

Last edited by pvzh on 03-12-2004 at 02:24

	03-12-2004 02:18									#7
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4000BC save would be fun to play with.

@pvzh I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing

	03-12-2004 02:34									#8
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Wish(Your)=Command:PB2000

Attachment: aupeace4000bc.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	03-12-2004 03:25									#9
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Sorry to barge in on yet another thread, just one little comment:

Given your city placement, I believe you could have irrigated that second Cattle without having to irrigate the Grassland tile between it and Amsterdam. Fresh water flows freely from the lake through Rotterdam to the Cattle.

Have fun!

	11-12-2004 22:55									#10
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2390BC Worker1/2 start road, of course.
Settler N. New York spotted on nice chokepoint.

2350BC The Hague founded. Damn, already one out of two shields corrupted. Begins Barracks.

2310BC Amsterdam completes Curragh (Columbus) and begins Settler.
Columbus begins journey up the E coast.

2270BC Columbus discovers America! American Wines! At this point I have a road network sufficient to allow America to trade me its wines. I am 13 turns from Writing. Since I want to be first to Writing, I will wait two turn to trade him Alphabet so that I can still have three cities when I trade for his lux, as he'll value it less.
Worker1/2 841.

2230BC Rotterdam completes Settler, begins Worker.
Worker1/2 begin mine.

2190BC First, I negotiate the deal below with Americans. Fortunately the two cheapest techs were the I'm most interested in. I could have paid more gold up front to get any of the other three techs instead of one of the two I got.

Attachment: audeitypeaceamtrade.jpg
This has been downloaded 92 time(s).

	13-12-2004 01:00									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

2190BC (cont) Utrecht founded. Set to Worker.
Worker3 S to mine/road.
The Hague switched to Temple.

2150BC Settler built at Amsterdam, goes 448.
Worker4 built at Rotterdam, goes to N of Amsterdam to road.
Columbus discovers a new continent, NE of America.

2110BC Worker1 W to mine/road.
worker2 roads.
Groningen founded, set to Barracks.
Columbus' "great discovery" turns out to be barely more than a collection of weeds.
America currently has one more city than I do. I am number 1 for pop, MFG, GNP and Prod.

2070BC Rotterdam trains Worker5, 98 to mine/road.

1990BC Amsterdam builds Settler, 887.
Worker2 S, Worker2/4 mine.

1950BC Worker6 trained at Rotterdam, 787 to chop.
Eidhoven founded. Set to Temple.

1870BC Worker7 trained at Rotterdam, 787 to help chop then road.
Worker8 trained at Utrecht, 778 to mine/road.
Worker2/4 88 to chop.

1830BC Amsterdam produces Settler, GoTo forest W of Worker6/7.

1790BC Rotterdam trains Worker9, 98 to help road.
Worker5 begins road.
Worker6/7 road.
Worker3 998.

1750BC Writing discovered. Phil in 50.
Worker3 886 to chop.
Worker2/4 mine.
I negotiate the deal below with Lincoln.

Attachment: audeitypeaceamtrade2.jpg
This has been downloaded 83 time(s).

	02-01-2005 05:25									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

1725BC:
Rotterdam trains Worker10, NE to mine.
Worker5/9 87, Worker1 7, to road.
Worker6/7 Mine.
Philadelphia(American) border expansion.
Arnhem founded, set to Curragh.
Columbus 422.

1700BC:
Amsterdam creates Settler, 884.
Columbus 269.

1675BC:
Rotterdam trains Worker11, NE to mine.
Utrecht trains Worker12, 788. Switched to Curragh.
Worker1/5/9 mine.
Settler 74.
Worker2/4 road.
Columbus 669.

1650BC:
Seattle(American) founded.
Maastricht founded, set to Temple.
Worker12 477, Worker6/7 to mine/road.
Columbus 633.

1625BC:
Rotterdam trains Worker13, 788.
Temple in The Hague pop-rushed at the cost of one citizen.
Columbus 323.
Worker1/5/9 48 to mine.
Worker2/4 SE to chop.
Worker3 mines.
Worker10/11 698 to mine/road.

1600BC:
Amsterdam creates Settler. 884. Now down to two pop, BTW. Palace will be relocated to Maastricht in a few turns.
The Hague constructs Temple. Set to FP to avoid chop shields, will switch to Barracks next turn.
Groningen completes Barracks, set to Archer.
Columbus 369.

1575BC:
Rotterdam trains Worker14, 878 to help chop.
Finally get up nerve to ask America to move Warrior NE of Maastricht since before that tile was in my territory. They accept (He remains Polite). Note that they now have Iron Working.
Worker1/5 SE to chop.
Worker9 N to chop (in American territory, soon to be mine).
Settler 777.
Worker8 966 to mine/road.

1550BC:
Worker6/7/12 14.
Groningen briefly switched to Pyramids to avoid chop shields.
Columbus 899.
Worker2/4 mine.
Settler N.
Discover that chopping is not even an option for Worker9; my best guess is because it's American territory. Learn something new every day
Columbus998.

1525BC:
Rotterdam trains Worker15, 877.
Worker13/14 begin mine/road.
Worker1/5 mine.
Atlanta's borders expand Settler S. Worker9 S. Decide to Switch Arnhem to Temple.

1500BC:
Wow, America offers to renew the Wines deal for the mere 8gpt originally set at the initial deal. Gladly accepted.
Japanese city of Edo complete Colossus.
Temple pop-rushed at Eindhoven at the cost of one-pop.
Worker2/4 63 to mine/road.
Settler S, joined to Maastricht.
Worker9 S, joined to Maastricht.
Worker15 89 to help mine.
Columbus 686.

1475BC:
Eindhoven ordains Temple, set to Curragh.
Groningen trains WilliamTell(Archer), 78.
Utrecht launches Champlain, 699. Set to Barracks.
Amsterdam creates Settler, NW. Amsterdam now at two pop with 1fpt, 5spt and zero (extra) food. With forthcoming chop, Settler will be ready in four turns, disbanding Amsterdam. I think a fifth turn, with zero growth, may be needed.
Columbus 998.
WilliamTell fortifies.
Worker10/11 24 to chop.
Columbus 889.

1450BC:
Rotterdam trains a new Worker9, 877.
Settler spacebarred.
Worker6/7/12 668.
Columbus 699.
Worker1/5/15 336.
Champlain 998.

1425BC:
Worker6/7/12 633 to chop.
Worker9 N, joined to Maastricht.
Worker1/5/15 336 and mine.
Champlain 886.
Columbus 888.

1400:
Rotterdam manges to squueze out another Worker9, 88 to chop.
Maastricht pop-rushes Temple at the cost of one citizen.
Worker13 NW and dutifully joins Maastricht.
Lux to 20%.
Worker3 14 to mine/road.
Champlain 986.
Columbus 64, taking a quick venture into the sea.
Worker10/11 SE.

1375BC:
Maastricht constructs Temple. Set to Barracks.
Champlain 988.
Columbus 877.

1350BC:
America completes Pyramids.
Rotterdam complete the second Worker13, 96.
Eindhoven launches CaptainCook, 869. Set to FP.
Groningen trains Archer1, to Maastricht.
Lux back down to 10%.
Champlain 889.
Columbus 84. Coast sighted.
Worker2/4 744.

1325BC:
Amsterdam finally abandoned (I think that was actually six turns, I forgot that the second chop would occur so soon). Maastricht is the new capital.
Haarlem founded, set to Temple.
Worker9/14 mine/road.
Worker10/11/13 road.
Settler SE, Holwerd founded. Set to Curragh.
CaptainCook 889.
Champlain 888.
Columbus 88, dark green (Japanese) border spotted in NE.
Worker12 N.
Worker2/4/12 joined to Eindhoven. FP now scheduled for 40 turns.
Worker1/5/15 111.
Worker8 14, joined to Haarlem.

Attachment: audeitypeace1375bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 60 time(s).

	02-01-2005 05:28									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Sorry to barge in on yet another thread, just one little comment: Given your city placement, I believe you could have irrigated that second Cattle without having to irrigate the Grassland tile between it and Amsterdam. Fresh water flows freely from the lake through Rotterdam to the Cattle. Have fun!

Quite right, old chap Sorry I didn't respond till now. I do think I got approximately two extra turns of Cattle irrigation because of how I did it, but it probably wasn't worth it.

Here's the current save for anyone wishing to mill around in my empire:

	02-01-2005 06:26									#14
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One question: why so many Barracks in a peaceful game? And why Archers?

Edit: Oops, I guess that's two questions...

Last edited by Dominae on 02-01-2005 at 07:45

	02-01-2005 07:02									#15
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It's cheaper to have Veteran units in the long run, IMO. I'm quite weak at the moment. The Americans have IW, and far more units than I could even guess at. It's fortunate they're not aggressive, and I'm generally doing my best to keep them in good spirits. Trading them 8gpt from turn 40 on should help prevent them from making an attack, but nothing is certain with civ AI, as I'm sure you well know. I want to be able to withstand any attack which may be forthcoming. You'll also note they're all in cities closer to the American border (Groningen being the only one not immediately on the border). Units at the front as well as quick healing would be essential in any war that may arise. Archers because I can only build Warriors, Archers and Spearmen. Generally I'm going to want to be attacking units before they can attack me, as well as being able to kill off injured units. Also, Offensive units project more strength to the AI than defensive ones, so I want them for my first few units. If I had Math. I would build Cats as well. After I have a couple cities set on building units I will begin Spearmen and later, when I'm fairly close to getting IW, I will begin building Warriors for upgrade. IF I can wrangle the Wheel soon I will also build Chariots for upgrades.

	03-01-2005 02:43									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

In this most foul year of our lord, 1300Bc:
Both Columbus and Champlain are reported to have been lost at sea, without contacting the Japanese.
Worker3/6/7 744.
Worker1/5/10/11/13/15 212 to mine/road.
Considered Dom's reply, and also my own supposed rationale, and switched Utrecht to Temple. BTW, more suggestions/comments/questions would be appreciated by anyone kind enough to be reading this thread.
CaptainCook 888.
Rotterdam switched to Temple.
Some quick stats for those interested: 1st in Productivity and Family Size; 2nd in Mfg. Goods, GNP and Population; 6th (last) in Military Service and Land Area.
Oracle in Mecca(Arabian); Colossus in Edo(Japanese), Pyramids in Washington and ToA being constructed in Boston (American).
World Area 5%; America 9%.
World Population 22%; America 13% (good, good).
Culture 164; America 270
Score 338; America 516.
Power is just shy of America, actually.

1275BC:
Worker3/6/7 SW to Arnhem, added.
Groningen trains Archer2, 74.
CaptainCook 966.


1250BC:
Worker11/13/15 788.
Captain Cook 66.

1225BC: Maastricht and The Hague complete Barracks. Switched to Spearman, Archer, respectively.
Temple in Utrecht pop-rushed longhand at the cost of two citizens.
Worker11/13/15 abruptly switched E to mine.
Worker1/5/10 N.
Worker10 joined to Utrecht.
Worker1/5 99.
CaptainCook 888.

1200BC:
Utrecht constructs Temple. Tentatively building warrior sans Barracks.
Worker14 99, added to Eindhoven. WilliamTell/Archer2 66 to accomodate. FP now in 21 turns.
Temple pop-rushed in Arnhem.
Worker1/5 joined to Holwerd.
Visit Abe. Not finetuned yet, but he apparently will be willing to give me IW for all my gold (83) and gpt (19). He has Poly. now, too. I want to build a few more Archers/Spearmen before I commit enough cities to training ~5 Veteran Warriors, as well as having enough gold and gpt to be able to upgrade foreseeably thereafter, so I don't trade yet. In addition, I'm hoping to meet another civ or two first, dramatically reducing the price, most likely.
Worker9 666.
CaptainCook 88.

Attachment: audeitypeace1200bc.jpg
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	03-01-2005 02:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Edit: Oops, I guess that's two questions...

Just noticed this addition

	03-01-2005 04:02									#18
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1175BC:
Arnhem completes Temple. Set to Curragh.
Worker9 N, joined to The Hague.
Worker11 999.
Worker 13/15 788 for fortification.
CaptainCook 88, now seeing into Japanese border. Contact is ensured, though it hasn't happened yet.
Holwerd switched to Temple.

1150BC:
Maastricht trains Spearman1, 66.
Worker11 N, joined to The Hague.
Archer1 66.
Archer2 99.
CaptainCook 88. Egyptian borders barely visible. Japanese contacted. They do not have three techs that I do (including Alphabet). The do have The Wheel and Poly. I will wait a bit and see how many contacts I can gain before trading.

1125BC:
Groningen trains Archer3, 662.
CaptainCook 877, Egypt contacted. I can only offer them Writing, and they have IW as well. I will continue to explore a bit, as I have no immediate need for any of these techs anyway and they will only become cheaper. I do slightly fear the Egyptians gaining Writing at this time, but I figure if Japan doesn't even have Alphabet, it's not too much of a concern. Japan is Polite, BTW, while Egypt is Cautious.

1100BC:
Egypt wants CaptainCook out of its water, which I agree to, though they are Annoyed now anyway.
Archer3 SE and fortifies.
CaptainCook has always been something of a swashbuckler with a devil-may-care, cavalier attitude and continues 888, further into Egyptian territory...

1075BC:
Maastricht trains Spearman2, fortifies.
CaptainCook 969.

1050BC:
Japan doesn't want us in their water either, dropping to Cautious.
The Hague trains Archer4.
Arnhem launches the new Columbus, 244.
CaptainCook 899.

1025BC:
America asks columbus to leave, we acquiese.
Then they declare war , taking Arnhem with a Warrior and Spearman.
Groningen trains Warrior1.
Here's a shot of the action:

Attachment: audeitypeace1025bc.jpg
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Last edited by punkbass2000 on 03-01-2005 at 12:14

	03-01-2005 05:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 BTW, more suggestions/comments/questions would be appreciated by anyone kind enough to be reading this thread.

Ok.

Is Utrecht sitting on a Grassland tile? I would have placed it one tile South, on the Tundra. This way, you cover a pretty useless tile, and gain access to a bunch more useful (Grassland, Coast) ones. I imagine you wanted to be next to the lake because you're Agr., but in a drawn-out game like this one I think the additional tiles are well worth the cost of one lost Food during Despotism.

It seems you were right about American aggression. Good luck!

	03-01-2005 06:16									#20
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Actually, that's the plan. ATM, (and, more importantly, when it was originally founded) it is probably better where it is for the extra food. Soon, with Republic, Construction and a better economy it will be moved S. You'll notice it recently pop-rushed, so I don't intend to have it go above pop 3, and in the mean time it's going to take advantage of the extra food so it can work the Tundra and coast squares, popping out Workers when desirable. It will produce a Settler and disband when the Workers have nothing to do again and when I have the money to instantly buy it an Aqueduct, Library and Harbour.

	03-01-2005 15:07									#21
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Don't forget that unhapiness from poprushing is transferred to the nearest town when the original town that was used to poprush is disbanded/razed.

	03-01-2005 19:24									#22
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Oh yes, don't worry, I won't even have Philosophy in twenty turns, let alone Republic/Construction.