03-12-2004 13:45									#1
	AI not trading logically Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Last night; OK; early this morning! I was trading with someone for something. I think it was Japan and a tech ( I was a little sleepy ) anyway I found an amount of gold they were happy with and then for some reason (I was half asleep) I added gems. Japan went to being insulted by the offer!
I woke up at this point and removed the gems; they were happy with the deal again! Tried it a few times same result.
Has any one a logical explanation? Apologies if this is a well known bug; I have been away from Civ and Apolyton for a long while.

	03-12-2004 13:59									#2
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If you broke some deals, they might not like to do those again. The simple reason is, they don't trust you to keep paying (sending Gems) for 20 turns. OTOH, a one-time cash payment is ok, because you pay the whole thing at once.

	03-12-2004 14:13									#3
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Right; this may have happened; not sure. I think the road to my extra gem tile may have been cut (by a volcano) earlier in the game; perhaps it was part of a trade at the time.

Still only logical by AI standards; after all the gems were being offered in addition to the gold not instead of.

	03-12-2004 19:19									#4
	Got spare money?

One other thing, sometimes I have a trade going, like 10G/T for gems. 20 turns pass, and the civ shows up to renew the deal. They are still willing to pay 10/turn. Now, I'm thinking I could get a bit more from them for it, so I hit the "proposal" bit. To my suprise, they are suddenly "insulted" by the 10G/turn deal... What gives?

	03-12-2004 19:45									#5
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The AI seems more eager to continue a deal, even unfavorable, if you leave it untouched. If you want to renegotiate, be prepared that they won't give you the same deal again. They might give you a better one, of course (for example if you were selling something very cheap last time), but you never know for sure.

When considering luxuries, you probably got some new ones during the 20 turns. the AI knows the value of luxuries (combinet with Marketplaces), so the more you have, the more expensive it will become to buy some new ones. That's precisely what the AI "realized", when you wanted to renegotiate the deal, so it wanted you to pay more.

	03-12-2004 22:59									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

those bloody greedy AIs!

OTOH my favorite practice is whenever an AI call upon me for a trade on their world map for mine, I'd just renegiotate and see how much they are willing offer me. Sometimes I can get 20 gpt

	03-12-2004 23:09									#7
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I don't know about that. It's been a looong time since I last sold my map to the AI. However, you can often snag some gold and a free "refresh" of their map, while signing a ROP.

	03-12-2004 23:28									#8
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In the luxary situation I think the AI in it's calculations assumes you have a market place in every city. So it's applying the number of cities you have and the happiness affect from market place on that luxary #s. It's doesn't concern itself with if a luxary does no further good [e.g. already having 6 luxaries with max population already in a WLTPD on all size 12 cities negoating a 7th.] Also it does not concern itself with the 2nd luxary in the same deal. So when buying luxaries, you'll save a little money by grabing them in a package and when selling you'll earn more selling them seperately.

On world map trades, the AI is known for sugesting extremely favorable to AI map deals. If their map is worth one more gold than yours is and you own a tech they don't, they will sugest map for a map + that tech.

Conversely, if their world map is worth more, they always sugest world map for a world map.

I get suspecious with AIs territory map for territory map requests, I usually renegioate them as I'm buying their world map for some gold.

	03-12-2004 23:35									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun One other thing, sometimes I have a trade going, like 10G/T for gems. 20 turns pass, and the civ shows up to renew the deal. They are still willing to pay 10/turn. Now, I'm thinking I could get a bit more from them for it, so I hit the "proposal" bit. To my suprise, they are suddenly "insulted" by the 10G/turn deal... What gives?

Yes this is always a good moment to pause and think; how much do I need this; is this my lucky day.
For three negotiations in my present game the Sumarians have offered me two luxuries for one; could I get more; maybe but not worth the risk.

	04-12-2004 01:48									#10
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Barinthus those bloody greedy AIs! OTOH my favorite practice is whenever an AI call upon me for a trade on their world map for mine, I'd just renegiotate and see how much they are willing offer me. Sometimes I can get 20 gpt

I'm a little weird about WM trades. I don't do 'em. I refuse nearly every time. Out of pure reflex, I think, because the AI loves to demand that I pay them my WM + [insert top-flight tech here] for theirs, when I already have it from 2 turns ago.

Frankly, not trading my map to the AI is, in most cases, silly. They know the map anyway and the trade would possibly net me money and help relations. It's humans you don't wanna trade maps with...

-Arrian

	04-12-2004 04:12									#11
	Put an end to popups!

They know the terrain, but they do not have knowledge of habitable areas.

IOW if you can cut them of from exploring an area behind you, they will not try to sent settlers back there. If you give them your map, they will then know there is land to settle and off they will go.

They know that a resource is on a given tile back there, but not how to find a route to it.
I will trade or give my map, once there is no land available on it. I do not want to give them my new map later if I have had a war and took land and this land has some exposed tiles.

I am thinking of those few tiles on the edge that have not come under the cultural border yet. If I do give it to them a boat will show up with a settler.

	04-12-2004 06:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 If you broke some deals, they might not like to do those again. The simple reason is, they don't trust you to keep paying (sending Gems) for 20 turns. OTOH, a one-time cash payment is ok, because you pay the whole thing at once.

You are right about this, but I think you fail to mention that this a bug or some type of AI programming limitation/failure.

Barington's original post said

quote: I found an amount of gold they were happy with and then for some reason (I was half asleep) I added gems. Japan went to being insulted by the offer!

Even if the human player is totally untrustworthy, why wouldn't they accept the cash deal they like PLUS a luxury? It just doesn't make sense.

	04-12-2004 07:02									#13
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This is a known behavoir. It is likely due to a prior broken deal.

	04-12-2004 10:38									#14
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Agreed its known ai behavior... my point is that it's not logical behavior. I believe that's also the point of the original post.

	04-12-2004 14:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Agreed its known ai behavior... my point is that it's not logical behavior. I believe that's also the point of the original post.

	05-12-2004 02:14									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I will trade or give my map, once there is no land available on it. I do not want to give them my new map later if I have had a war and took land and this land has some exposed tiles. I am thinking of those few tiles on the edge that have not come under the cultural border yet. If I do give it to them a boat will show up with a settler.

Same here. The only exception is that if I have some military units to spare and I'll send those to those exposed tiles to 'stake' my claim.

Someone said something about ROP - I hate granting AIs ROP since they'll clutter my empire with their units. So most of the time I will refuse to do so unless I can see there are some benefit in doing so or they are already rampaging through my lands and I'm not prepared to war them so as well as get something out of a ROP.

	06-12-2004 00:04									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If they are rampaging through your lands with a stack of units with no settlers, it is absoultely sucidial to form an RoP with them.
Especally if they have no workers near your borders.

	06-12-2004 00:51									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

Will keep that in mind, thanks.

In my case, it happened that I arranged it for several AIs to be at war with each other and they crossed my lands to get at each other.

	06-12-2004 01:02									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn If they are rampaging through your lands with a stack of units with no settlers, it is absoultely sucidial to form an RoP with them. Especally if they have no workers near your borders.

Try starting in the middle of a pangea then. You'll have to watch this happening throughout the game, never knowing which one is headed for you.

Yes, it is suicidal if there is no place they could go through your territory. Then you can be sure the stack that just entered is about to attack you.

	06-12-2004 08:49									#20
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Yep I was in the middle of a pangea. There's a screenie to illustrate this in that thread about Iron Works.