Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > IBM to sell its PC and ThinkPad business
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:18
  Old Post 03-12-2004 23:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#31 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Oerdin: I sorta feel that way, as well, however, that's where the cold financial analysis ( that says that if they sell it for 5bil, they're selling it at 50 P/E, and thus are doing a good deal ) fails.


Legend does not have $50 billion. Legend doesn't have $5 billion and it will likely have a hard time coming up with $2 billion. Legend is a low margin clone maker which makes computers for other brands.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 03-12-2004 23:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#32 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Apple's a niche computer maker on the way to joining the ranks of other consumer electronics makers.


Yep, and the lamers like IBM who pissed away their businiess are getting out.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 03-12-2004 23:27 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#33 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Yep, and the lamers like IBM who pissed away their businiess are getting out.

Erm...even IBM's current marketshare is far higher than Apple's is.

IBM's getting out because the profit margins are too low and growth potential is low. Which is funny, because Apple's strategy seems to be to use iPods to drive their PC sales.

Apple is striving to get where IBM is, and IBM has thrown in the towel because it considers the market to be too insignificant for a company of IBM's size and stature.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:35 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#34 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/04/t...04computer.html

quote:
Weighing I.B.M.'s Possible Absence in the PC Market
By GARY RIVLIN and JOHN MARKOFF

Published: December 4, 2004

SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 3 - Inside Hewlett-Packard, the world's second-largest personal computer maker, executives greeted the news on Friday that I.B.M., the world's No. 3 PC maker, might be retreating from the market, with good cheer.

Executives at Dell Computer, the largest personal computer maker, would not comment, but some industry analysts speculated that they too were smiling about I.B.M.'s decision.

According to people close to the negotiations, I.B.M. is in serious discussions to sell its PC business to Lenovo, the largest maker of PC's in China - a burgeoning market that Hewlett-Packard and Dell covet. I.B.M. is in talks with at least one other potential buyer. Industry experts note that a sale to Lenovo may create a powerful new rival with operations based in China.

Alan Promisel, an analyst at the research firm I.D.C., said a deal with Lenovo "would put up a significant roadblock to Dell and H.P.'s Asia Pacific expansion, at least potentially so." Mr. Promisel and others noted that a larger Lenovo, formerly known as Legend, could have the power to further squeeze down PC prices because of its track record as a producer of low-cost machines.

"If they're able to complete a deal," Mr. Promisel said, "Lenovo is obviously going to be more aggressive on the pricing front, which could lead to a compression on price points in the industry," potentially eating into the profits of every PC maker.

The price for I.B.M.'s personal computer unit is likely to be in the $1 billion to $2 billion range. A buyer would be purchasing the blueprints to the ThinkPad, a family of laptops generally regarded as the world's most reliable and secure laptops.

"The ThinkPad isn't just the best machine for the price," said Richard Dougherty, director of the Envisioneering Group, a market research firm in Seaford, L.I. "It is the machine for anyone concerned about security."

A buyer would presumably get the ThinkPad name and also I.B.M.'s customer list, but whether that would be worth much over time remains to be seen. According to people close to the negotiations, a buyer is also likely to get the use of I.B.M.'s brand name on PC's for a transitional period and I.B.M. may continue to sell the computers to corporate customers after the business unit is sold.

Mr. Dougherty said he is already hearing from I.B.M. customers fretting about a sale to a company that has specialized in low-price machines. "Customers are saying, 'Oh my God, we need to be assured we can get ThinkPad models that are just as secure and reliable, and not just a watered down ThinkPad brand from Lenovo,'" Mr. Dougherty said.

While Hewlett and Dell may benefit from that uncertainty, they may not necessarily benefit over the long term. I.B.M.'s retreat from the PC sector may be an irreversible transition from a world where corporate workplaces have personal computers on each desktop to one where corporate offices run on centralized computer systems with simple monitors on desks known as "thin clients" that have network connections.

This transformation would tend to harm Hewlett more than Dell, industry analysts said, because Hewlett, like I.B.M., is stronger in the corporate market than Dell, which sells the bulk of its computers to consumers. I.B.M.'s potential withdrawal from the desktop computer business indicates it has concluded that growth in corporate PC sales is largely over.

"If I.B.M. is getting out of the business because it can't make money, then investors will ask themselves, 'What does I.B.M. know that H.P. doesn't know?'" said Andrew Neff, an analyst with Bear Stearns.

And even for I.B.M., backing away from traditional personal computers now may not help, said Jonathan Schwartz, president of Sun Microsystems, one of I.B.M.'s top competitors.

"We've been in the post-PC era for four years now," Mr. Schwartz said, noting that last year a billion wireless handsets were sold compared with 100 million personal computers.

But Duane Zitzner, the executive vice president in charge of Hewlett's personal computer business, notes that the sector remains profitable, with Hewlett earning $210 million on PC's in the fiscal year that ended in October.

Moreover, Mr. Zitzner said that I.B.M.'s retreat provides a golden opportunity for his company. "Any time there's a change like this, it adds a level of uncertainty among customers buying equipment," he said, a condition his company intends on exploiting.

Dell accounted for 18 percent of PC sales - including laptops - worldwide in the third quarter of 2004, according to I.D.C., compared with Hewlett's 16.1 percent market share. I.B.M. was a distant third at 5.2 percent. I.B.M.'s sales are almost exclusively to corporate buyers, with most of those buyers being customers who also buy other equipment and services from I.B.M.

While Hewlett and Dell are expected to compete vigorously for I.B.M.'s corporate market share, there is evidence that this market will shrink over time.

The "thin client" concept has been a topic of heated debate in the computer industry for more than a decade. In the past, skeptics of that concept pointed to the PC's flexibility and convenience, as well as to the problems with mainframe computing.

Today, however, a number of factors ranging from the explosive growth of the Internet to increased computer and data security concerns are shifting the equation. Managing viruses and worms are easier on centralized systems, and software development is increasingly shifting to applications based on Internet-based standards.

"The days of the $3,000 desktop personal computer are over in the corporate world," said Terry Garnett, a venture capitalist who is a partner at Garnett & Helfrich Capital, based in Menlo Park, Calif. "This is a paradigm for the future and a signal of where things are going."

That trend has been reflected in a variety of recent analyst reports. On Thursday, for example, Rebecca Runkle, an analyst at Morgan Stanley, lowered her 2005 growth forecast for PC unit sales by 2 percent, to 9 percent. She noted that consumer, small business and government markets all slowed in the second half of this year.

In May, I.B.M. began offering a new thin client software application called Workplace - based on the Java programming language - that is intended for Web-based computing where data is managed and stored centrally.

I.B.M. is betting that such systems will be increasingly attractive to corporate customers - and will consequently diminish the once mighty personal computer business.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:37
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#35 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

IBM are getting out before they're pushed out. Plain and simple. It's just yet another IBM failure.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:40 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#36 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life



Agathon is such a brilliant computer analyst...

It bothers me that they're ditching the ThinkPad market -- I'm thinking that is perhaps not something they're actually selling.

The X-series ThinkPads, for example, are basically portable "thin clients" -- we use them at work and they run Workspace over the wireless network very well.

Thinking about it again, with IBM's PC market nearly exclusively being with businesses, and the ongoing transition to thin-client machines...it's perhaps not a bad move -- provided they keep ThinkPads.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:42
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#37 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

And for an amateur like me to be so much more reasonable than you must be quite shaming.

IBM used to have an incredible amount of mindshare in the PC world (back when you were in diapers). They pissed it all away.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:45 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#38 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

Don't you get it? The PC is meaningless. It's a market with shrinking profit margins and lowered growth expectations.

IBM still has a larger marketshare than Apple, which is why your whole position is incredibly amusing.

And IBM still makes more money than Apple, HP, Dell, etc. by a good margin, which is another reason this whole thing is amusing.

I suggest you stick to your speciality of ancient homosexual philosophers, and leave the real world to other people.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:47
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#39 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Don't you get it? The PC is meaningless. It's a market with shrinking profit margins and lowered growth expectations.


I would say the market for home computing is changing. A pity that IBM isn't in a strong position to take advantage of that.

quote:
I suggest you stick to your speciality of ancient homosexual philosophers, and leave the real world to other people.


I suggest you try living in it for a change.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:48 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#40 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
I would say the market for home computing is changing. A pity that IBM isn't in a strong position to take advantage of that.

What does the B stand for in IBM?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:50 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#41 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

It would be utterly stupid for IBM to try to enter the home computer market, a sector with shrinking margins and a lot of tiny customers. IBM's core competence and speciality is dealing with businesses and huge corporations, not Agathon the Philosophy Instructor in Toronto.

They're more likely to deal with your university than with you.

To criticize International Business Machines for not entering a market for home computers with shrinking margins is pretty funny.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#42 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

"Bullshit" of course.

And don't play pathetic semantics. There's nothing stopping a company being diverse, except incompetence.

On the bright side, I guess this means that they will rely less on Windows so the quality of their products will improve.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#43 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
It would be utterly stupid for IBM to try to enter the home computer market, a sector with shrinking margins and a lot of tiny customers.


Of course, unless they wanted to make more money.

Dell seems to be doing fairly well. That could have been IBM if they'd had any brains.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:54 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#44 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
"Bullshit" of course.

And don't play pathetic semantics. There's nothing stopping a company being diverse, except incompetence.

There is such a theory of core competence and speciality, both in the psychology of your customer and in specializing your product development.

IBM is largely a company about dealing with businesses, Apple is largely a company about dealing with cheap consumers.

All you have to do is look at the size of the companies and the profits of the companies to determine which one is the brighter move...

There are far better markets for IBM to enter than home computing. That's why it canned its iPod product before iPod launched (forcing PortalPlayer to find a new customer -- Apple), and that's why it got out of the hard drive business, and that's why it's looking to get out of the PC business.

IBM is slowly transforming into a services & solutions company. "Product" is a four-letter word at IBM.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:55
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#45 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's pretty funny this.

I wouldn't expect IBM to take my thoughts on the business seriously, but why you would expect the views of an economic illiterate like yourself to have some worth is beyond me.

I guess that's why the bean counters should always be in charge.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#46 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote:
There is such a theory of core competence and speciality, both in the psychology of your customer and in specializing your product development.


Those are just excuses for losers.

Microsoft has managed to maintain a very diverse range of interests. They even made childrens' gaming consoles.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:56 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#47 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Of course, unless they wanted to make more money.

But why? The engineers would best be used in the high-profit margin and rapidly growing sectors, like their servers and supercomputing divisions.

There are not infinite resources at the company, and at one point you work on getting into exceptional markets instead of any market you could get your hands on.

To understand IBM's decision to do this, I strongly recommend you learn about IBM's history. Read "Who Says Elephants Can't Dance"...

The reason IBM almost ran itself into the ground in 1991 was listening to idiots like you.

quote:
Dell seems to be doing fairly well. That could have been IBM if they'd had any brains.

And Apple could've been Dell if they'd had any brains.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#48 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

quote:
Apple is largely a company about dealing with cheap consumers


Isn't it you who is always complaining about how expensive Apple's products are?

You could at least be consistent... well... once.. anyway...

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:58 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#49 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Those are just excuses for losers.

Microsoft has managed to maintain a very diverse range of interests. They even made childrens' gaming consoles.

Diversity was the name of the game til '91 when IBM almost had the largest corporate bankruptsy in history.

Specialization saved it and made it one of the most profitable companies around.

Continue to harp diversity though, by all means. We all appreciate your insight into technology, as it is clearly so well-founded and informed.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:59 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#50 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Isn't it you who is always complaining about how expensive Apple's products are?

You could at least be consistent... well... once.. anyway...

They're cheap customers compared to corporations. Read it in context, Aggie.

An Apple customer buys a $300 iPod, an IBM customer buys a $300M contract.

And I would just like to say you're a classic example of why Philosophy-type people should not be running a technology company. You really have no clue even about the market and company history, or about technical product development and future trends.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 08:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#51 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
Continue to harp diversity though, by all means. We all appreciate your insight into technology, as it is clearly so well-founded and informed.


Of course you have to do it the right way, and diversify efficiently, etc.

I thought you were clever enough to assume that much...

Apparently not...

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 09:01
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#52 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

This has become boring.

Who cares about IBM anymore apart from faceless officials and other boring people?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 09:02 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#53 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
This has become boring.

Who cares about IBM anymore apart from faceless officials and other boring people?

That's where the money is, my friend.

That's where IBM's business is. You don't understand what IBM today is about or how it makes its money, which is precisely why people like you should never run a company.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 09:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#54 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
...but if the people who invented the PC can't hack it in the PC market then...


They didn't invent the PC (personal computer), not even the name.

IBM's greatest contribution was, by adding the three letters to these little machines, legitimising them for large dinosaurs, thus setting the stage for the decade of explosive growth in the sector.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 09:13
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#55 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote:
That's where IBM's business is. You don't understand what IBM today is about or how it makes its money, which is precisely why people like you should never run a company.


I'd bet you anything you like I could do it better than you. You are too intolerant of other people, alternative ideas and scepticism to ever be a successful organizer on a large scale.

Oh.. and UR is basically right.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 09:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#56 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:

In the 23 years since I.B.M. lent its prowess in mainframe computers to the production of desktop machines, it has been widely criticized for having destined the machines to commodity status by giving Microsoft and Intel the rights to those essential standards.



This is rubbish, hindsight is so 20/20.

The only legit criticism one could make in 1981 was the decision of picking i8088 over MC68000, while the latter was so much better.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 09:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#57 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

maybe IBM will sell thinkpad to someone who can make GOOD laptops, not shitty ones...

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 09:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#58 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

quote:
maybe IBM will sell thinkpad to someone who can make GOOD laptops, not shitty ones...


That's what most people are saying. "Hell before a Dell" and all that.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 10:19 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#59 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This sucks!

IBM's desktops and laptops are simply in a class above their competitors, mainly Dell and HP. I know that they don't make much money on them but I think the brand value that they get from these solid pieces of hardware make up for that.

On the other hand, we have had burn after burn from getting IBM consultants coming in and not knowing what the hell they were doing.

IBM's core business products and support are fantastic but their fringe products and support totally blow.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:18
  Old Post 04-12-2004 10:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#60 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Nothing quite like an Asher / Agathon slapfest to get a weekend rolling.

*gets popcorn*

 
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:18.
Apolyton Time is 00:18.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0701 seconds (89.10% PHP - 10.90% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net