30-08-2005 23:36									#361
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Here is my attempt at the F-86 Sabre your in need of Harry. Its based allot on Gareth's P-90 with a recoloured cockpit, lowered tail fins and a embedded seamline on the fuselage.

The only element I'm not sure of is the shield I attatched to the fighter, I believe the USAF may have been formed by then with the new "post USAAF" logo, but I'm not sure.

Attachment: f-86 sabre.png
This has been downloaded 144 time(s).

	30-08-2005 23:46									#362
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Not too shabby Chris. I have one request though, make it a bit bigger so that we can show it off with the ToT pallete. The Sabre was close in size to the F9, about 40 feet in length, 40 feet long and I want to showcase one of the best dog fighters constructed.

EDIT: and if I remember correctly, the USAF used the standard star over bars at the time.

Last edited by Harry Tuttle on 30-08-2005 at 23:54

	31-08-2005 00:10									#363
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I donīt want to be the pain in the ass .... but: considering the fact that the F-86 (as was the MiG-15) was based upon the plans the Americans (respective Soviets) were able to retrieve out of German planning bureaus I doubt the USAF would be operating such a plane given your timeline.

Here is the Wikipedia entry for the "mother plane"

And now I shut up, sorry.

EDIT: Added the Wikipedia link.

	31-08-2005 00:20									#364
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http://www.warbirdalley.com/f86.htm

"History: In 1944, North American Aviation submitted a design for a swept-wing day fighter which could also be used as a dive-bomber or escort fighter. Two prototype XP-86s were contracted in late 1944, but were not built until after WWII due to the incorporation of several design modifications which were prompted by German research data. The first XP-86 prototype flew on 1 October 1947, powered by a 3,750-pound thrust G.E. J35 engine. After it was re-engined with a more powerful G.E. J47 turbojet the following spring, it was redesignated the YP-86A, and exceeded the speed of sound in a shallow dive. The first production model was initially designated the P-86A, but became the F-86A in June 1948. By the time the new fighter entered US Air Force service in 1949, it had gained the name "Sabre." "

Some More: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p86_1.html



Aha! So you see, since the plane was already in development, it could have been possible to create the F-86 or at least a lesser version that would have been improved from the FJ Fury - but still lacking some of the minute details from the German design.

	31-08-2005 00:25									#365
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Yes, thatīs true. I just told Chris over @ MSN he might post a German edition of that unit too - the Focke-Wulf Ta 183 was the designated successor of the Me-262 ...

My guess would be that the Germans in your timeline would come up with something like the MiG-15 which was heavily influenced by the Germen designs the Soviets retrieved when they overrun Berlin in '45.

	31-08-2005 00:31									#366
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I concur. The Ta 183 is a necessary unit in the game. The Germans will most likely start off with the ability to produce the unit at the start of the scenario while the Sabre will have to be researched by the Americans.

Ooooh, another interesting article. http://www.militaryfactory.com/airc...aircraft_id=120

The Sabre derived one main component from the German design - the swept wing. Without it it could not reach high speeds. But, they seemed to have resolved the problem with the research data by 1945. So, if the scenario is to start after 1947 then I believe we are in the clear. Someone would have figured the swept wing out by then.

	31-08-2005 04:26									#367
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I am not sure if the Germans should be able to build it at the beginning, Harry.

The MiG-15 - which was much more based upon German WW2 designs than the Sabre - performed its maiden flight in '47. Assuming Germany won WW2 it is much more likely that early models of a "Fw Ta-183"-like plane would be with the Luftwaffe. Since it was a designated successor of the Me-262 anyway, I suppose the German industry would produce a lot of these ones after initial combat (losses).

Maybe some event-triggered production start (like "too many Me-262 lost by now, so the Führer decided to commision full front service of the next generation of jet planes ...") would be much more likely?

	31-08-2005 05:48									#368
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As I sneek out the back door...

Attachment: ta183.png
This has been downloaded 121 time(s).

	31-08-2005 06:38									#369
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Thanks Jimmy

@Steph: Well I don't know how late the plane would have really come into production. According to some of the stuff I'm reading ( http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircra...n/info/info.htm ) the plane was in prototype stage by at least spring of 1945 and production was supposed to have commenced in the summer. The plane was supposed to have first used the same engines that the Sparrow used.

The scenario starts after 1947, so there's a good possibility that the plane could be used early on, especially if they're trying to take on the U.S., the biggest adversary there was in the timeline. Though I could see the plane coming out in limited quantities in response to a loss of enough Sparrows or maybe as a result of resources being diverted to armor production.

So maybe the appearance of better aircraft should come in waves as a result of a trigger as you said... I want to keep the gameplay as responsive to the Human players assault as I can, so I don't think a tech trigger would work alone. Can you make triggers in ToT that are based on units lost?

	31-08-2005 08:30									#370
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Damn. People are getting good at this.

	31-08-2005 19:27									#371
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Well in any case Harry I'm on the job for both planes. I'll take a shot at enlarging the current design into both the "Fw Ta-183" and the "F-86". What I'll probally end up doing is make a vector path around the old fuselage so I can enlarge it, recolour it using the same colour scheme fairline had initially, then it should be a simple job of redrawing the wings, cockpit and all.

I'll try to have something ready to show tonight Harry .

	31-08-2005 19:32									#372
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Thanks Chris

	31-08-2005 21:02									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Sarsstock .....Its based allot on Gareth's P-90......

My what? I don't remember drawing a 'P-90'......?

If you are looking for a good starting point for an F-86 to modify, then have a look at Jimmywax's excellent Sabre (with his permission of course!). The proportions are spot on.

	01-09-2005 05:52									#374
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Hmm.... something strange has happened. I posted this new unit afew hours ago but it seems to have been deleted. Oh well .

Anyways Gareth I had mistaken Jimmy's unit for one you had created, my apologies once again. I have been using Jimmy's Sabre as a reference, hopefully I'm getting closer to what Harry's looking for.

Anyways, here she be. I tappered off the fuselage, shortened the wings, narrowed the cockput and tightened up the intake. Let me know what the verdict is.

Attachment: f-86 sabre v1.1.png
This has been downloaded 90 time(s).

	01-09-2005 06:48									#375
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You posted it in the modern unit thread... Looks good Thanks Chris.

	01-09-2005 07:46									#376
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Ahhh so I did. Thats a relief actually, I thought I was going crazy for a second as an entire group of posts seemed to have been whiped out.... my bad .

In any case I see you say its close, any further changes I make will be posted on the Modern Unit thread as to not clog up your AE2 thread here.

Last edited by Sarsstock on 01-09-2005 at 08:07

	01-09-2005 11:04									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Sarsstock Anyways Gareth I had mistaken Jimmy's unit for one you had created, my apologies once again. I have been using Jimmy's Sabre as a reference, hopefully I'm getting closer to what Harry's looking for.

Wow, ok all I can say is wow. That someone would actually mistake something of mine for Gareth's and then have Fairline himself recomend it. Wow

P.S. The fact that I am in a tiny ass motel room in Chester Montana (with several beers in me) kind of has the effect of making me into an emotional little cream-puff.

	01-09-2005 11:10									#378
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@ Harry

That Ta-183 really was a hack job. I did it in about 20 minutes based off some 3d gfx by Mario Merino. I think the color needs some tweakin and so does the tail. But I hoped somebody could take it as a starting point and run.

	01-09-2005 17:13									#379
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quote: Wow, ok all I can say is wow. That someone would actually mistake something of mine for Gareth's and then have Fairline himself recomend it. Wow

You deserve every bit of it, beer or no beer

Nice going on the Sabre Chris, eagerly awaiting the finished product.

@ Harry

If you're still needing a P-80, I have this little knock-together from the works of Jimmy, Gareth and Curt. You know the drift, any mistakes or ugliness contained therein is solely the responsibility of one Typhoon.

	01-09-2005 18:26									#380
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Killer units all over today, great stuff!

	01-09-2005 19:47									#381
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Thanks Typhoon Nice update of the p-80 by the way too.

@Harry are you considering a place for the He-162 volksjager. Maybe something that could be made available if the war starts going badly for the Germans.

	02-09-2005 13:10									#382
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@ Typhoon: Wonderful units

@ Jimmy: Now thatīs not too bad an idea ...

Since the scenario starts in 1948 that would be a good idea - even if an other plane would do that trick possibly.

Harry,

one more point: Let's talk logistics.

I think we cann all agree that German logistics in WW2 were not *that* good. Hindsight speaking, I know, but: Even during the early campaigns (Norway, France for instance, not to speak of Barbarossa) logistics, supply etc. were not too good.

(I read that the Wehrmacht had diesel fuel available on 22 June would have lasted for 3 months, the Luftwaffe had bombs stored for one month of war by 22 June 1941, btw.)

And now you are suggesting the same Wehrmacht - though victorious in Europe - would be mountin a major offensive against the US of A, thousands of kilometers off their bases and homelands, over the Atlantic - and this with the more than just limited resources of the Kriegsmarine? Not to mention the unbelievingly huge naval power of the US Navy/Air Force.

I for one doubt that, sorry.

I could, however, imagine the Germans using their special weapon - rockets, jet fighters and bombers, huge, improved submarines - extensively to bypass these dangers from the Navy & Air Force.

I need to get going now, I shall keep you posted on that aspect - if you want me to.

	02-09-2005 15:33									#383
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For more information on the logistics aspects of Sea Lion (for instance) follow that link.

Furthermore, I doubt the Kriegsmarine would be able to check the US Navy. The odds are just too small. Look at the only German Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin - no match for the the American navy either.

I know of the aspects of the Germans using their aircraft & submarines to fight the US Navy ... please do not take this as more than it is: questions to solve this problem.

Sorry again for being such an arse

	02-09-2005 16:48									#384
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quote: And now you are suggesting the same Wehrmacht - though victorious in Europe - would be mountin a major offensive against the US of A, thousands of kilometers off their bases and homelands, over the Atlantic - and this with the more than just limited resources of the Kriegsmarine? Not to mention the unbelievingly huge naval power of the US Navy/Air Force.

Meh. My advice - don't get too caught up in the reality of the situation if it's going to interfere. Remember, in AEI you were attacked by the undead themselves, so I'm not going to have to suspend too much belief to imagine the Nazis assaulting the USA! I think he mentioned that there are a lot of pro-Axis states in Central and South America, which might help a bit.

Anyway, how much do you bet that Harry already has a conceivable backstory ready to explain it?

	02-09-2005 16:55									#385
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I bet that too - until I get to read it I will continue to harass him

	02-09-2005 18:34									#386
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quote: And now you are suggesting the same Wehrmacht - though victorious in Europe - would be mountin a major offensive against the US of A, thousands of kilometers off their bases and homelands, over the Atlantic - and this with the more than just limited resources of the Kriegsmarine? Not to mention the unbelievingly huge naval power of the US Navy/Air Force.

quote: Remember, in AEI you were attacked by the undead themselves, so I'm not going to have to suspend too much belief to imagine the Nazis assaulting the USA!

And here comes Cyrion to the rescue with a really plausible explanation: of course the nazi Panzerdivisionen are carried and supported by an entire fleet of flying dutchmen!

	02-09-2005 19:26									#387
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I knew this was coming.

Ok, I'm going to add a few plausabilities to the argument.

1. Staging Point For Invasion: In the first AE we see the Germans stage a number of coups in the northern countries of South America. With friendly governments in control of these countries it is plausible that men and materiele could have been, especially in the relative peace between the American/Japanese War and the European War, moved to these countries. Staging points, depots, and airfields could have been prepared and constructed to provide a jump off point for the initial stages of the invasion of Mexico and thus North America.

2. Experience: Rommel is in control of Germany at this point and has consolidated the bulk of Europe. Mannstein is back after Rommel got him out of exile. The Hand of the Reaper (your old persona, the protoge' to Rommel) is still around and will show up. Also we have to remember that the German forces our now veterans, very experienced veterans. They aren't the same green troops that went through France or Norway.

3. Power Concentration: The BF109T and Me262 are fully employed by the German Navy. The Atlantic is Germany's back yard. Germany's full Navy is located in the Northern Atlantic. American forces are broken up in fleets from Somoa to Australia to Hawaii and are already supporting the Nationalist Chinese in mainland China plus have to contend with occupying Japan. The straits of Panama are mined and have U-boats patrolling the coast from friendly South American ports. The US Navy would have the advantage of sheer numbers and more experience, but it would all come down to how much naval power they could pack into the Atlantic at once. A series of engagements with a prepared Kriegsmarine and the US Navy could have some serious problems on their hands.

4. Ambition: As the story goes, the American public just lost a few hundred thousand soldiers fighting the Japanese. They don't want another war and neither does the White House or the Pentagon. They have Communists to fight and they're happy with that. The German High Command want blood and have planned out how they're going to take out the Yanks once and for all.

5. Technology: The Germans are a generation ahead of the Americans in regards to airpower. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarines have the V3 and television guided missles. Their jet powered planes are at least 80 mph faster than what the Americans can foot.

Ok, that's what I got. Also remember that the industrialists were given control of war production. No more holidays off.

	03-09-2005 01:04									#388
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My question Harry is about the U-Boats in service with the Kreigsmarine. Will the Type XXI (Elektro Boot) be in full service by the time of AE2? In real life only one of the 118 built by 1945 had embarked on a combat patrol, however in the Atomic Eagle timeline I'm sure it easily could have demonstrated its full potential and taken over the role of workforce of the U-Boat fleet by 1948.

	03-09-2005 02:01									#389
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Very true Chris and AE2 will most likely feature them. But of course this'll be primarily a land war so there won't be a huge naval presence in the scenario.

	03-09-2005 04:24									#390
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Harry,

I hope you forgive me (for now and whatīs coming dopwn there ... )

@ (1): While it is true about your first part of Atomic Eagle, since the relation of the US war effort was 15 to 85 between the Pacific & Europe I consider it rather *unlikely* that the US - though behind in technology - would suuccumb to the Kriegsmarine.

The Bismarck and the Tirpitz aside, it would take years, more likely decades, before the Germans would be able to face the US Navy on the seas.

Another matter is submarine warfare. Also, carrier-based aircraft would be too little, too few to make the difference in this case.

Also, US policy would not have let the Germans (or the Rooskies in the OTL) to gain any significant foothold in the Americas. With Germany winning WW2 in Europe it is even more unlikely the US of A would have alllowed to take these coups d'état to take place ...

@ (3) By 1948 the Me-109 (which was obsolete by 1942 earliest & would have been to replaced by other models as the Fw-190 or the Me-262) would not have been deployed I think. The Me-262 was to be replaced by the Ta 183 any time and this would lead to the conclusion the Germans would be in about the same position as the Yankees were in 1950 in Korea (Sabre vs. Fagot).

@ (4) Ambition: Yes, but I take that once it cometh to their homeland Yankees would lose their "sense of homour" ...

Sorry again .... donīt let your killer scenario bothered by me anymore