04-12-2004 11:42									#1
	This is REDICULOUS! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I first for a REBANG!!!

Ok, I will be the "man" and bring it up first.....this game is basically a "route" for Corp #1...What the hell? Have you all been training since the last time we had an Apoyton TradeWars Game?!?

This is REALLY getting rediculous with Corp #1 placing mines just out of Fed space all around Terra and the Starport.

I for one, say ENOUGH. Rebang this puppy while my interest is still with the "game" it self....at this rate, my interest is rather short lived.

If anyone else wishes to contrinue this "fiasco" I say go for it....but for me this is reallly rediculous....or have I said that already?

Oh, and another thing - ONCE A GAME IS STARTED (IE "BANGED") NO RULES WILL BE CHANGED. PERIOD. If this happends again - I WILL leave. PERIOD. Have I made myself clear?

If you all don't like my stance...then please do NOT invite me to another TW game. What Corp #1 did concerning the population levels on Terra - after our corp was hit by them is WRONG. When the population ratio was changed the game should have been considered null and void right then and there....but for some reason it wasn't.... Ok. Now I will speak/have spoken: ENOUGH!

In my mind did Corp #1 win? Yes.

Was it a fair and honest game? No.

Gentlemen, we really need to discuss the rules of play here....or shall we just accept the status of: Ye who hosts the game shall make the rules and change the rules (in game) however he sees fit?!? If this is infact the case, then count me out.

Last edited by Wittlich on 04-12-2004 at 11:53

	04-12-2004 12:26									#2
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Ok, first let me clarify something:

Corp 1 did NOT take any colonists from terra on the day the colonist regen rates were changed. The rule change meant maybe 1750 extra colonists appeared on terra that day. Corp 1 has done no colonizing in the last week. Corp 1 in no way benefitted from the temporary change in rules, and the change in rules was not done to benefit Corp. 1

I admit changing the rules during the game was inappropriate and apologize for doing so. I hope you can see why I might do it, and after the above clarification I hope nobody will think I changed the rules to give my corp some sort of advantage or disadvantage someone else.

Secondly:

I am just as interested in a balanced, competitive game as you are, Wittlich, and I certainly didn't invite people to this game and put hours and hours into setting it up in order to build up my ego in an easy win. I want this game to be fun for everyone, competitive, and challenging.

Regarding the whole landslide victory thing... yes, SPQR has walked away with this game by many miles. We admit it. You admit it. Let me explain why.

Before banging this game I looked up some strategies for evil and thought I would try them out this time.

This is my first game ever as evil, at least I don't remember playing evil before (I did coach solarwind in one game as a split corp) and I never before made 10 million credits in one sitting as evil. As it is, Oerdin and I make more than 10 million every day working together.

10 million credits is a huge amount of money and making all that money is the reason we won by so much. This success surprised me

Nevertheless, strategic innovation tends to come in big leaps; remember when you first realized that building lots and lots of little cities in Civ 2 was a more efficient and faster growth strategy than having a medium sized empire?

This evil strategy, called SST, is no less revolutionary.

There is a rebang in the works. Burbel and I have been talking about how to ensure the next game is more competitive and balanced. One of the ideas was fixing the corps before the bang to ensure that they are balanced. Another idea was reducing the number of turns per day to make it more difficult for more experienced players to walk away with it. I encourage everyone to contribute to the discussion.

I'll have more to say later.

Last edited by aeturneus on 04-12-2004 at 12:45

	04-12-2004 12:31									#3
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Solar got all of the colonists on the one day where it was changed. MarkG protested and the rate was changed back to the original setting without SPQR taking a single colonist on that day or the next.

	04-12-2004 13:21									#4
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One way the game might be able to stay fun for everyone is if everyone can improve their strategies - I would like the opportunity to work with some new people next bang, and Oerdin can take what he knows and work with some other people, and the game will be competitive and people will exchange knowledge.

	04-12-2004 14:05									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

a new game should be started but let's leave this running as well. i'm builting a nice little sector as a learning experience

	04-12-2004 14:53									#6
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG a new game should be started but let's leave this running as well. i'm builting a nice little sector as a learning experience

Do you have any suggestions to prevent the next game from playing out the same way? Or any preference for settings or corporations?

Who can bring balance to the force?

	04-12-2004 15:11									#7
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There are stilll questions concerning sector 2909 from both SPQR AND Apolyton - quite frankly, I feel that Apolyton betrayed me...and think I might have been better off alone... Yes, "Rock Terra" was dear to me.....and I want ANSWERS! How was it from one day to the next, there is only my lone planet......then, the next day, out of the blue, there are 4 other planets in the system along with a destroyed starport and hasmat out the ass...(I start to wonder WHAT is my corporation doing?)..and to top this all off, after the fact of me being dead (Yes, I stayed the night in Rock Terra's Citadel since all that Hazmat flying around, why not?) - Then, before I actually logged in - one of the pre-messages - ONE OF MY CORP PARTNERS (Do the math, we all know who it is) - sends me a message basically stating: Opps! sector 2909 should probably be evacualted since I "accidentally" told the sector to SPQR!

How in the hell does one give out one of our main bases to the enemy?!?!

I am not the one to point fingers, but Markos and I have our SOLID alibies.............Everyone else can do the math.
(please don't force me to publish the message...but I will if forced to (yes I copied it) )

So it would seem Markos, that we had a spy in our Corporation from the start...of course. this would go far in explaining SPQR's leaps.......but one still wonders why the "spy" did what he did.....what was in it for him?

Last edited by Wittlich on 04-12-2004 at 15:25

	04-12-2004 23:10									#8
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No one told us where your sector was. We've mapped around 85% of the universe and we decided to go hunting all the deadends for people's home worlds. Using Swarth it's very easy to keep track of things. Also we put up the nav haz as a was to deter people trying to take the sector back. Since we have trans warp drives we don't have to go through the nav haz we just jump from safe sector to safe sector.

	04-12-2004 23:14									#9
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BTW SPQR got so far ahead because a properly played evil will make 10-12 million credits per day SSTing. With that kind of cash you can put mines and fighters every where.

Basically, you want to sign in ASAP after the bang so you can start e-probing before people put up figher clouds and then you put fighters EVERY WHERE in order to prevent other people e-probing as much of the universe as you. The strategy is to map everything and to prevent everyone else from doing the same.

	04-12-2004 23:21									#10
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1) the extra planets was from burbel trying to get an oceanic planet (which was succesfull eventually)

2) the haz from the destroyed port was created from me doing an sbb only minutes before burbel suggesting that an sbs would be better since equipment cant be produced in decent amounts and we would need an equipment-selling port for upgrades

3) it was a terrible idea to spend the night on the planet. we hadnt built significant defences

4) i'm unsure what burbel meant with the message, i think the port destruction was noted in the daily log including the sector number

5) according to aeturneus, the existance of 2909 was known to SPQR a lot earlier than the attack. they evilly left us spend our time building it

6) as you can understand i think your accusations are wrong. it would be really silly to play such a game against us and i dont think burbel is silly

	04-12-2004 23:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by aeturneus Who can bring balance to the force?

well for a start, knowledge exchange is a good thing

for example i didnt know of the tactics oerdin just described and never made than kind of cash

on the other hand i didnt start playing from day 1 and spend my first 3-4 days geting blown up. so much for competition

	05-12-2004 01:36									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Right, sorry Wittlich, I popped the port to build a SBS, didn't know that NavHaz would be created. It was noted in the daily log that a port was destroyed in 2909. If Aeturneus and Oerdin never checked the log, we would have been fine. If they ever did, well, they at least knew to come and check out 2909, and see what happened there.

That's why I popped a couple of other ports that day, to try and make it look like I was on some crazy new strategy. Guess that didn't help.

Also, in terms of me helping SPQR, perhaps you didn't notice their two home sectors that I captured/cleared out, moving the colos to Rock Terra. I think that they noticed. Almost 4,000 of the colos there were from SPQR planets our corp took.

What drove the point home to me was this; here we were, getting our sector developed, and I had just gone very good in alignment by attacking Corp #1s fighters. When Aeturneus found me at the Stardock, and I saw that he had 50k figs, I knew we were finished, as I had destroyed by that time another 20k deployed figs, and barely had 10k left to me.

I'm all for a rebang, now that we've gotten a chance to see who will play, and who won't, and that there are some new strategies needed...

	05-12-2004 02:03									#13
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OK I think Wittlich made a good point about discussing rules in his first post - I've made a rebang thread, and I'd appreciate it if you guys would discuss the rules of play, the settings, and try to work out fair teams. Please continue this discussion in the rebang thread.

	05-12-2004 23:23									#14
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Mark, SST stands for Steel Sell Transport. It takes two players to do correctly; one evil player to steal and one other player to tow the other guy around. Basically you get two maxed out Colonial Transports with 250 hold and the other guy has a tow vehicle (ISS works well). Each of the red's turns are worth gold so you don't want him to use any turns doing anything but SSting thus the tow vehicle moves both Colts to star ports that buy equipment. Once your in place you steal equipment from the 1st Star Port, sell it back to the people you just stole it from, then use the transporter to beam over to your other Colt. Repeat until out of turns.

Swarth has a script which automates everything and I can complete a thousand turns in about 20 minutes with 10-12 million to show for it.

	07-12-2004 22:38									#15
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I was just messing around last night and checking out one of Apolyton's home sectors when I hit a piece of nav haz and one of my own photons went off making me lose 1970 turns.

We all know where each other's main sectors are but the truth is SPQR hasn't even been playing for three days now. Since everyone decided the game is over what's the point of going on? I see that Burbel tried to invade Ferringal but even if we don't play for a week he's not going to suceed where as we could have destroyed 2295 three days ago. When you have 20 times the fighters of everyone else it's easy to invade.

Still, I suppose I should have gone back after midnight and moved my ship so Burbel wouldn't have destroyed it but the truth I couldn't be bothered. The game is already over.

	07-12-2004 22:49									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We all know where each other's main sectors are but the truth is SPQR hasn't even been playing for three days now. Since everyone decided the game is over what's the point of going on?

For fun and giggles? I dunno... what exactly were you doing so innocently in Apolyton Nav Haz when burbel blew your ship up

I would have towed you (and I also would have taken the time to land and sleep on our planet) but I had an exam this morning and was really distracted... it's over, I'm back, but it's too late

Oerdin, does this mean I have to spend some of the 30 million we saved over the last couple of days to go beat up on burbel for revenge?

	07-12-2004 23:51									#17
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ACtually, if I would have saved the fighters I blew on Ferengal, I could have killed both of you. Think of that as our final blaze of glory that almost was.

I agree that the game is finished; MarkG said that he was trying something, and needed some credits, so I started trading again. When I saw Oerdin's beacon, I know that whatever we were trying was finished, so I decided to screw around. If you guys had stripped the shields from your ships in your other sector, I might have made a bigger dent.

	08-12-2004 00:20									#18
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I was thinking of loading some of those ships with corbo in case someone came looking for trouble - I did put a few tons on one of the IC's but you got lucky and picked the other one, heh.

It's pretty tough to defend a shipyard... at least these ships are relatively cheap.

Im playing around with the AI for the next game.. SPQR may come back as an annoying NPC AI organization, at war with the federation.

	08-12-2004 00:32									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Cool, I think if we could get 2-3 NPC factions going, in addition to the Ferengi, that ought to make things interesting. Say, 2 evil factions, and 1 good faction, then the players themselves.

	09-12-2004 02:00									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

NPCs are always good as long as they don't just sit around doing nothing like our current NPC.

	09-12-2004 02:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin NPCs are always good as long as they don't just sit around doing nothing like our current NPC.

Yeah, the Ferrengi AI in the Gold version is a completely different autonomous system than the in-game AI ferrengi, so they should do something next game too.