07-12-2004 03:02									#61
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quote: Yes, that's why you don't shoot unless you're physically threatened.

Yes, but someone breaking into your house immediately constitutes a physical threat, just by virtue of them having broken in. That's much of the reasoning behind self defense laws.

	07-12-2004 03:37									#62
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Actually, no, only the ****ed up Texas law.

But hey, violent backwards state, violent backward laws.

	07-12-2004 03:58									#63
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, and isn't that what the police are ****ING for? You know, stopping criminals from shooting innocent people?

They certainly are. They're also there to stop criminals (like Tony Martin) shooting other criminals.

You see, had Mr Martin left it to the police and his insurance he wouldn't have spent several years in prison and wouldn't be an ongoing burden to taxpayers. Hey, Floydie- who'd pay for his protection in your wacky world of libertarianism? Oh, yes- nobody would because all criminals would already be shot dead.

	07-12-2004 04:00									#64
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yes, but someone breaking into your house immediately constitutes a physical threat, just by virtue of them having broken in. That's much of the reasoning behind self defense laws.

No it doesn't. The police, fire services, ambulance services and gas board engineers can all break into property legally, to name but a few.

	07-12-2004 04:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I hope you never get drunk enough that you enter the wrong house at night. It happened to a former co-worker of mine. She was shot dead before she could say a word. There but for the grace of God go I. I've been drunk, very drunk before, dropped off or taken a cab home. I could have tried to enter or enter an adjacent apartment, the doors all look the same in an alcoholic stupor. Such is the result of your notions. Shoot first, ask questions later. 100 guilty persons escaping is a small price to pay for the life of an innocent.

What about the case of the Japanese tourist who mistakenly knocked on the door of a house shouting something in Japanese and bradishing a pistol-grip camera? The owner thought he was an incoherent lunatic trying to break into his house and shot him dead. The guy got off Scot free.

	07-12-2004 04:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yeah, "reasonable force" should be better defined. It seems to me that it's only fair that you can use a baseball bat or a golf club if the intruder has a knife.

I don't know about that. I believe that the knife is the superior weapon. Both require using two hands, while the knife-wielder has a hand free to ward off your blow. You may break his arm, but then while you're trying to raise the bat agian he has a clean strike at your chest, abdomen or neck.

	07-12-2004 04:10									#67
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Gepap,

quote: Actually, no, only the ****ed up Texas law. But hey, violent backwards state, violent backward laws.

I'm sorry. In my state, laws are not designed to protect criminals. Of course, most Texans don't have a problem with that, either



Laz,

quote: They certainly are. They're also there to stop criminals (like Tony Martin) shooting other criminals.

Describing the Tony Martin case as "criminals shooting other criminals" is misleading, as it implies that Tony Martin was a criminal or doing something wrong prior to being burglarized. AFAIK, he was not. He only became a criminal when he defended himself.

quote: You see, had Mr Martin left it to the police and his insurance he wouldn't have spent several years in prison and wouldn't be an ongoing burden to taxpayers.

Or, he might have been injured or killed by the burglars. That's the whole point of shooting burglars - you never know what they are going to do. The fact that ****ed up UK law sent him to prison doesn't mean he acted wrongly.

quote: No it doesn't. The police, fire services, ambulance services and gas board engineers can all break into property legally, to name but a few.

Maybe. But if a gas board engineers breaks into my house to check my gas, and I shoot him thinking he's a burglar, I won't be prosecuted in Texas. How am I to know who he is? If you are legally entitled to enter my property, it's a good idea to knock loudly and announce yourself. I don't even think I'd be prosecuted if a police officer broke my door down without knocking, announcing himself, or trying to serve me a warrant in certain circumstances.

	07-12-2004 04:12									#68
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UR,

quote: Yeah, "reasonable force" should be better defined. It seems to me that it's only fair that you can use a baseball bat or a golf club if the intruder has a knife

Why take chances? If the intruder happens to be a skilled knife fighter, he's still gonna win. Just shoot him and be done with it, then his knife fighting skills not only won't be a problem for you, but they won't be a problem for anyone, ever.

	07-12-2004 04:13									#69
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DO NOT TRESPASS!!!

Is that so freaking hard!!!

If there's a gate, don't open it
If there's a fence, don't jump it
and if it's a cop, don't run from it!

duh!

	07-12-2004 04:14									#70
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How not to get your ass beat by the po-lice

	07-12-2004 04:14									#71
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Describing the Tony Martin case as "criminals shooting other criminals" is misleading, as it implies that Tony Martin was a criminal or doing something wrong prior to being burglarized. AFAIK, he was not. He only became a criminal when he defended himself.

So what?

quote: Or, he might have been injured or killed by the burglars. That's the whole point of shooting burglars - you never know what they are going to do. The fact that ****ed up UK law sent him to prison doesn't mean he acted wrongly.

Well boo-hoo. British laws aren't passed taking into consideration your offended sensibilities.

quote: Maybe. But if a gas board engineers breaks into my house to check my gas, and I shoot him thinking he's a burglar, I won't be prosecuted in Texas. How am I to know who he is? If you are legally entitled to enter my property, it's a good idea to knock loudly and announce yourself. I don't even think I'd be prosecuted if a police officer broke my door down without knocking, announcing himself, or trying to serve me a warrant in certain circumstances.

Excellent! So you assess the risk of your situation before becoming executioner. We're making progress here, Davie!

	07-12-2004 04:19									#72
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quote: So what?

So your characterization is misleading. Tony Martin was a law abiding citizen against whom a violent crime was committed. His only "mistake" or "crime" was defending himself.

quote: Well boo-hoo. British laws aren't passed taking into consideration your offended sensibilities.

Obviously not, yet my point still stands.

quote: Excellent! So you assess the risk of your situation before becoming executioner.

Exactly! If the fire marshal knocks on my door, loudly announces he needs to investigate a fire hazard, I'll open the door and let him in. If he simply knocks my door down and charges in, then I'm justified in shooting him. But there is no need to "assess the risk" if someone - anyone - knocks down your door or breaks in through a window in the middle of the night - simply by virtue of having done so, the intruder is presenting a threat, and giving me all the justification I need to shoot him.

Now, if it's broad daylight and a little kid jumps in an open window, that's where risk assessment comes in. But we're talking about burglars and people who behave as such, which implies the middle of the night, etc.

	07-12-2004 04:20									#73
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Tony Martin's shotgun was illegally-owned, making him a criminal before he even fired a shot. I'm sure even in Texas there are some people for whom it is illegal to own a gun.

"laws are not designed to protect criminals"

The presumption of innocence applies to all circumstances, no? So you can't just assume someone is a criminal- although obviously if it is clear that a criminal attack is taking place and you can't stop it otherwise, no-one's going to complain if you do something.

	07-12-2004 04:24									#74
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quote: Tony Martin's shotgun was illegally-owned, making him a criminal before he even fired a shot. I'm sure even in Texas there are some people for whom it is illegal to own a gun.

Excuse me - my cultural bias is such that sometimes I forget that you can't own a shotgun in certain countries.

My overriding point was that Tony Martin was not a violent criminal, nor was he actively breaking any laws OTHER than having a shotgun, which was ultimately only used for self defense.

quote: The presumption of innocence applies to all circumstances, no?

No. Presumption of innocence applies to interactions between the police and suspects, and the courts. I don't have to presume the innocence of someone who breaks into my house. If the person is arrested and tried for breaking and entering, or burglary, or whatever, THEN he is presumed innocent. But if I shoot him while he's in my house, it's lights out, tough **** for the burglar.

	07-12-2004 04:24									#75
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So lets just say it is a Son of Sam type who breaks into my house in the middle of the night armed to the teeth with the sole intent to kill me, but it is too dark to tell anything about the intruder

Taking your retarded advice into count, instead of shooting him and saving my family, I anounce myself and get automatic weapons fire to the chest. I would rather have mistaken felony committing buglars killed by accident then one completely innocent law abiding citizen killed in their stead.

Why do you hate inoccent people defending their home and their families?

	07-12-2004 04:30									#76
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They are overly concerned with innocent people dying. My point is, if someone breaks into your house and acts like a burglar, they aren't innocent by definition, and in the case of drunk idiots doing it, the only suggestion I can offer is don't drink more than you can handle.

	07-12-2004 04:53									#77
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My overriding point was that Tony Martin was not a violent criminal, nor was he actively breaking any laws OTHER than having a shotgun, which was ultimately only used for self defense.

Oh come on, either you're a criminal or you're not (And don't bring up archaic out-of-date dumb laws in response, this was a law passed in 1998). You can make your points without misleadingly characterising Tony Martin as a law-abiding citizen.

	07-12-2004 05:04									#78
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People overly concerned about knive wielding psychotic ninja masters breaking into their house should probably be sent to a statistics and probability class.

Lords, you're more likely to kill your entire family yourself driving them to the corner store than a burgler is.*


*At least in the UK you are. Between Floyd's morals and Speer's accounts, my general impression of America is a vast Mogadishu type urban sprawl. Except for the parts of NY/NJ I lived in, where I know it's a vast mogadishu-type urban sprawl.

	07-12-2004 05:18									#79
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The arguements above are primarily for the situation where you have no idea who the person is and there is no way of discovering motive short of asking the person in a way you ernestly believe will expose you to danger. "excuse me, did you just chamber a round or are you stealing my staples?" In those cases only would I actually shoot someone.

If he is obviously a burglar then no he won't be shot, and I don't think anyone here has advocated that besides bleeding hearts purposefully reading into things.

I have the right of common sence to unload a world of hurt on people violaiting my home, but the same common sence keeps me from blowing a way tricker treaters for trespassing

	07-12-2004 05:19									#80
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If it was Mogadishu we would at least have a 200/1 burglars to homeowners killed ratio. At least for Americans.

	07-12-2004 05:21									#81
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I saw this elsewhere, thought it summed up the thread very well, so I adapted it:

Liberals, Conservatives, and David Floyd

How do you tell the difference between Liberals, Conservatives, and which does David Floyd count as? Pose the following question:

You're asleep with your wife and two small children in a near room when suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife bursts into your room, starts screaming obscenities, locks eyes with you, raises the knife, and charges.

You happen to have access to a Glock .40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

What do you do?

Liberal Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we get away?
What does my wife think? What about the kids?
Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
What does the law say about this situation?
Does the Glock have an appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me?
If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
Should I call 9-1-1?
Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.
This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some
friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus.

Conservative Answer:

BANG!

David Floyd's Answer:
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...
(sounds of reloading).

Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"

Son (Poking his head round the door): "Mom's right Dad, I saw it, too."

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.

Daughter: "Nice group, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips?"

	07-12-2004 05:43									#82
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That can be shorted.

Liberal: Dead, Wife Dead, Family Dead, knife weilding lunitic alive.

Conservative: Alive, Wife Alive, Family Alive, knife weilding lunitic dead.

David Floyd: Alive, Wife Alive, Family Alive, knife weilding lunitic dead.

Last edited by Patroklos on 07-12-2004 at 05:48

	07-12-2004 06:48									#83
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Har har har. Anyone would take the shot in that situation, people are far more conservative in their personal affairs and dealing with their family then they otherwise are.

	07-12-2004 07:20									#84
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/.../ixopinion.html

Some interesting stuff in here about burgularies in GB, about 50% and rising of them are done while a family is at home, compared with around 10% here in the US.

	07-12-2004 07:30									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I don't know about that. I believe that the knife is the superior weapon. Both require using two hands, while the knife-wielder has a hand free to ward off your blow. You may break his arm, but then while you're trying to raise the bat agian he has a clean strike at your chest, abdomen or neck.

You can feint a strike, then when he tries to block with his free arm, go for his knife arm, head, etc.

	07-12-2004 07:36									#86
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Why take chances? If the intruder happens to be a skilled knife fighter, he's still gonna win. Just shoot him and be done with it, then his knife fighting skills not only won't be a problem for you, but they won't be a problem for anyone, ever.

You missed the point again.

The point is not the actual use of a weapon, but to keep the intruder out by the threat of such use. You are on the defense, you don't need to actually use a weapon. All you need to do is to keep him at bay at a choke point. A burglar is most likely to flee when confronted in such a fashion. He has easier targets to pick.

	07-12-2004 07:38									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha but then burgulars will just bring boards with nails in them, forcing the construction of even bigger boards, with even bigger nails, until, one day, we build a board with a nail in it so big that it will destroy us all!

You don't think people walking around with big boards with nails in the middle of the night are going to be stopped by the police?

	07-12-2004 07:42									#88
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i think i should just start terrorizing texans by setting their houses on fire and then shooting them as they exit, and then robbing them. theyll never see it coming.

	07-12-2004 07:44									#89
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I got WOLF in my .40 Glock 27...180 grain FMJ...

My hand built Fulton Arm's M14 isn't loaded, but I got one mag on the dresser.

I got my rifle parts from the Fulton Arm's web site. It was easy enough to assemble because I learned how to shoot at an early age. I ordered everything off the internet with my credit card, rofl... no FFL license required. well, FFL license was needed for the receiver though.

Attachment: sage-pre-ban-extended-500_50.jpg
This has been downloaded 44 time(s).

	07-12-2004 07:45									#90
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but I don't yet have a preban mag, I got a shitty 5 round.