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Elbert
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I have played CIV2 for one year almost every day till late hours. But at the end two things started to irritate me: Settlers and the length of a game. Controlling settlers cost too much time, I prefer the solution of CTP.
Sorry to say but I find the turn-based strategy game genre a dead genre with no improvement over the last 7 years. I bought CIV3 for 10 Euro, installed it, played 5 min and uninstalled it and never played it again. Just other graphics, tech and/or units is not the solution. Also more tech and units is not the solution, I prefer even a smaller tech tree.
So what do I hope for? A new direction but to be honest I dont know in which direction. That's up to the creative minds of game designers. What I dont need is a CIV4.
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Brent
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TBS is the genre that least deserves to be dead.
I think Culture was a good innovation.
I really think you didn't give Civ3 a fair chance if you only played it for five minutes.
I agree athat graphics are worth nothing.
We need the flagship of TBS to continue. Most of the ones out there just don't sound right to me.
The Editor is your friend.
The Political machine sounds like a great concept, but I guess it's not quite for me.
I guess I'll like GC2, although it sounds like maybe not as much as GC1.
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Maquiladora
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quote:
And about the settlers / workers problem: automation is a VERY VERY good innovation of civ3. It beats ctp public works every day. |
You can automate Public Works around each city. Besides, whats the point in having a worker system at all then if you're letting the AI do it?
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Maquiladora
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quote:
1. you can micromanage some workers |
You can micromanage some cities Public Works, and in a lot less time.
quote:
2. it gives a new dimension, other then the "use a % of your money for public works" like you use a % of your money for science and a % for your luxerious |
Using a % of a resource to spend on tile improvements is a new dimension.
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3. workers can be captured |
Pillaging a farm or another tile imp has been made to give PW points to the pillager in a CtP2 mod already, or you could give extra population.
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4. workers cost population |
Public Works Tax costs productivity (or whatever resource you choose to tax in a new PW system) in your cities.
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5. workers can be moved, and stopped during the job they're doing. Workers can help each other to fasten the job |
You can decrease or increase your PW tax. I dont see any advantage in being able to stop a job and certainly not in spending lots of time moving workers around.
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6. workers can be put back into cities |
So?
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7. workers alter terrain that's not yours |
Same with Public Works.
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what's public works? It's nothing but just another thing you can do. It removes depth from the game. |
Whats workers? Its nothing but just a thing you have to spend large amounts of game-time doing, and becomes a chore for a part of the game that should be carried out in an easy and therefore fun way. Complexity doesnt equal depth.
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Brent
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I agree. Try GalCiv. Maybe you'll end up even getting the Altarian Prophecy expansion before I do, with its editability.
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patcon
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quote:
Originally posted by Maquiladora You can micromanage some cities Public Works, and in a lot less time. |
Why less time?
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Using a % of a resource to spend on tile improvements is a new dimension. |
Why is this an improvement?
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Pillaging a farm or another tile imp has been made to give PW points to the pillager in a CtP2 mod already, or you could give extra population. |
What is the logic in this? Why should destroying an opponents roads, farms, or mines make it easier for you to build improvements in your area?
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So? (I think referring to the ability to have workers join a city) |
Allows the transfer of population from one city to another in a way that models real-life. A city has just been founded in a newly-acquired and potentially highly-productive area. I can wait forever for the pop to slowly increase on its own, or I can use a pop-stagnant city (one which has reached its cap size) to produce workers who could then travel to the new city to join that city (ala the migration of Okies to California during the Dust Bowl - OT - isn't "Grapes of Wrath" a great book/movie).
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Whats workers? Its nothing but just a thing you have to spend large amounts of game-time doing, and becomes a chore for a part of the game that should be carried out in an easy and therefore fun way. Complexity doesnt equal depth. |
What's PW but just a thing that you have to spend large amounts of game-time doing, and becomes a chore for a part of the game that should be carried out in an easy and therefore fun way. Complexity doesn't equal depth. Building a worker unit once, then telling him where to go and what to do, and then repeating the process once the job is done doesn't seem to be more tedious than having to set and update a PW budget and then pointing out which tiles and which improvements you want to spend this budget on.
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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by patcon
What's PW but just a thing that you have to spend large amounts of game-time doing, and becomes a chore for a part of the game that should be carried out in an easy and therefore fun way. Complexity doesn't equal depth. Building a worker unit once, then telling him where to go and what to do, and then repeating the process once the job is done doesn't seem to be more tedious than having to set and update a PW budget and then pointing out which tiles and which improvements you want to spend this budget on. |
This usually indicates a lack of understanding of the PW process, as compared to the worker system. So let's settle this, once and for all AND objectively, regarding the tedium factor of the two systems.
The simple fact is, the current civ3 system, as it stands now is grossly more tedious than the PW setup used in the CTP series. Not so much in the early game, but once you get to the mid-game, the tedium factor is much greater in civ3.
Taking the example of a normal mid-game civ3 setup with 75 workers, this is what you have to do (each turn).
1. Scan the map to determine where you want the improvements.
2. Scan the map to locate workers currently not doing anything. We will use the number of these type of workers at 35. A reasonable assumption...
3. Determine which workers go to which location - send each of them to their destination. The group command sometimes saves a little time, but oftentimes if you have multiple tasks, you may need to send workers on the same tile in different directions. So it may end up that you have to mouse click and drag most of the workers to their destination.
4. Since you cannot issue a command to build a mine/farm until that worker gets to that tile, you have to issue another command once that unit gets to that tile. (That's another mouse click) Plus you cannot issue a group command to all of the worker that occupy a tile - you have to give a command to each worker. That's even more clicking...
5. Repeat process, ad nauseaum.
To top it off, when you have so many workers going to so many different locations, it becomes a little dizzying to keep track of where each unit is heading to. civ3 has it structured that when you select a unit, it automatically wipes out the autopath you may have set up for that unit. That is frustrating.
To describe the PW setup, here is what you have to do.
1. Scan the map to determine where you want the improvements.
2. Click on an icon to select what type of improvement you want to build.
3. Click on the map to build it. The cost is deducted from your fund. Build until your fund is depleted.
4. Set your fund via slider.
This process handles all issue in one turn - the determination of what needs to be built and the command to build it. It greatly cuts down on the 'click' factor. In civ3 you may have to click 4 times per worker to get your final product (select unit, move it, select unit when it gets to its location, and then issue a build command) and you may have to click multiple times per tile improvement if you use multiple units to build it. In a PW setup, you have a max of 2 clicks per improvement.
The end result is the same - the creation of a tile improvement. The path to get that tile improvement is what makes the difference. Both system allow pillaging. The only difference between the two systems is that workers can be captured and you can determine the speed with which the tile improvement can be constructed by the amount of workers you use for a task in a worker setup, but I can argue a that a PW-based setup can be established that would give a PW bonus to a civ that destroys a tile improvement that is in-process of being built, and that you can determine the time that you want to build a tile improvement in a PW-based setup, based on a cost factor of PW used.
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07-12-2004 02:09
(me included)
. But maybe I should try one...
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