07-12-2004 03:52									#1
	The Apple of IBM's Eye? Remove this text

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/1...le_speculation/

quote: Apple of IBM's eye? By Cormac O'Reilly Published Monday 6th December 2004 11:32 GMT Opinion As the IT world digests the fact that IBM has, according to the New York Times, put its PC division up for sale, another set of speculation revs up. No, not the fact that the rumored potential buyer is Chinese company Lenovo, nor the cruel related joke that many old IBMers caught in the sold PC division would quickly will appear on a Chinese take-away menu, thereby helping fix IBM's embarrassing pension funding problems. Instead, an even better and more audacious speculation is that once publicly free of the PC division IBM will either buy, or form a close joint venture with Apple to sell its PCs, which coincidentally are now built around IBM's PowerPC chip. Selling its PC Division would also pave the way for such an IBM move to be approved by the FTC. To add even more heat to already hot gossip, it turns out that Apple is not among the published list of early companies signing up for IBM's PowerPC consortia - a rather strange gap given Apple's now absolute dependency on that microprocessor range. Well, you may ask, why would they sign up if a romance with IBM was in the air, or maybe even already consummated? And, knowing just how difficult it is to keep secrets these days, is it coincidence that some financial analysts have doubled their estimate of Apple's stock price expectation recently? Just think how many positives for IBM such a marriage would provide. IBM would give the same credibility to the Macintosh computer, and its Microsoft-beating operating systems as it provided for the PC in the first place, thereby opening the flood gates of corporate demand. Then of course there is Darwin, Apple's version of BSD Unix at the heart of its Mac OS X operating system, which would nicely provide IBM with a non Linux semi-open source alternative, and one that is focused on its on benchmark beating P (sorry G) 5 microprocessor. And of course there is all that synergy in the high performance, bargain priced Unix server and disk array products that Apple has taken to market, which must be hard to resist. Hitching up with Apple would provide IBM with a real inroad into the fast growing 'lifestyle' market, something the men and women in blue suits kind of missed. Perhaps most of all, it would be a way for IBM to get even with Microsoft for all that bad blood over the early versions of Windows, which IBM partnered in, and apparently accidentally part-funded. Remember that what IBM got out of that for its money was an operating systems that chairman Gerstner famously named Warp, which turned out to be the speed at which it hurtled into oblivion. Cast your mind back to Apple's announcement that hell had frozen over when they launched a Windows version of iTunes. I wonder what in hell will happen if there is any substance to this rumor. We shall see...

Now that's an !

	07-12-2004 04:09									#2
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Why sell off your PC business just to buy someone else's PC business? That sounds like a pie in the sky dream for Apple lovers.

	07-12-2004 04:13									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Why sell off your PC business just to buy someone else's PC business? That sounds like a pie in the sky dream for Apple lovers.

quote: Instead, an even better and more audacious speculation is that once publicly free of the PC division IBM will either buy, or form a close joint venture with Apple to sell its PCs, which coincidentally are now built around IBM's PowerPC chip.

	07-12-2004 05:38									#4
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What chip is apple going to use besides the Power PC? Face it. Apple is stuck buying that chip even if IBM doesn't buy them.

	07-12-2004 05:43									#5
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It's pretty funny, but unlikely.

What would happen to, "Do you use IBM or Apple?"

	07-12-2004 05:50									#6
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If is is true, I'd like to see Asher's face when his company dumps Wintels for Macintosh.

	07-12-2004 06:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If is is true, I'd like to see Asher's face when his company dumps Wintels for Macintosh.

I was thinking the same thing. It's good to see we're on the same page, Aggie.

	07-12-2004 06:27									#8
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Interesting. I wonder what the effects of that would be.

	07-12-2004 06:29									#9
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Apple will have to stop playing the Big Brother commerical at Macworld.

	07-12-2004 06:31									#10
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It certainly would not happen.

Any speculation of the sort clearly has no f*cking idea of IBM's history and market, nor the strategy and history of the current CEO.

He's all about selling off low-profit, low-growth sectors and investing in high-profit, high-growth sectors.

It's a no-go.

Apple came crawling to IBM because they made a stupid decision with Motorola, and IBM happily charges Apple an arm and a leg for a fast CPU (high-margin), without any worry of support or marketing. I don't see why they would change such a profitable position.

ThinkPads have a real street-cred with the real computer users, and Apple's toy notebooks are not something IBM wants or needs.

	07-12-2004 06:34									#11
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Famous last words...

I don't think it would happen either. But I'm quite prepared to mock you endlessly if it does.

I read on Slashdot that it is rumoured that at the first meeting to discuss the proposed PowerPC alliance, both companies were so eager to impress the other that the Apple guys turned up in suits and the IBM guys in T-Shirts and jeans.

I hope it is true.

	07-12-2004 06:36									#12
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If this happened, it would be good for Apple in it's business market because the IBM culture revolves around marketing it's products and services to businesses, while Apple's culture on the other hand revolves around the consumer and education markets.

If more people used Macs at work, then they could learn to like them and even think about buying a Mac for themselves, which translates to more people using Macs at home, too.

For this reason, I think that a merger or strong partnership between the two companies is a great idea! As a matter of fact, I had thought a couple of years ago that this could happen in the future. It's looks like that dream might just come true.

	07-12-2004 06:43									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy If this happened, it would be good for Apple in it's business market because the IBM culture revolves around marketing it's products and services to businesses, while Apple's culture on the other hand revolves around the consumer and education markets.

Which is precisely why it will never happen.

The current CEO vetoed the "iPod" a year before Apple had it, because he didn't want to enter that market. He sold any and all parts of the company that sold low-margin high-volume parts, because he didn't want them as part of the new IBM (eg, hard drives).

The last thing he'd do is go buy a company with shrinking consumer PC marketshare.

IBM's desktops have a higher marketshare than Apple's desktops, IBM's laptops have the #1 marketshare period. It makes no sense to sell IBM's trusted brand only to market Apple's toys...

IBM is a business company. Business is its middle name. Apple is a consumer electronic toy company.

There's no chance in hell they'd form a joint venture.

Period.

	07-12-2004 06:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There's no chance in hell they'd form a joint venture. Period.

Well, we shall see.

And I'll be the one laughing if it does happen and you'll be the one having spells!

	07-12-2004 06:58									#15
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Speaking as someone who regularly has to deal with Apple as part of corporate relations, I'd rate the current relationship as borderline hostile.

Apple is nonresponsive and completely egodriven, just like Jobs himself. It's a total culture clash -- IBM's reps are all strictly professional with grammar-checked emails and formalities, Apple's emails are littered with typos and some don't even capitalize words. Half the time they don't even respond.

Or my favorite example, asking them to update or patch the version of GCC they ship with OS X since it has a bug which interferes with our product, and they reply (paraphrased) "gcc isn't ours, we don't have to fix it". HELLO -- it's already been fixed, we're just asking you to update it...it's a 1-line include file fix.

Long story short, as far as high-performance computing and compilers go, I think if you speculate on a joint venture it'd make most IBMers (and probably most Apple employees) naucious.

	07-12-2004 07:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Speaking as someone who regularly has to deal with Apple as part of corporate relations, I'd rate the current relationship was borderline hostile. Apple is nonresponsive and completely egodriven, just like Jobs himself. It's a total culture clash -- IBM's reps are all strictly professional with grammar-checked emails and formalities, Apple's emails are littered with typos and some don't even capitalize words.. Half the time they don't even respond. Or my favorite example, asking them to update or patch the version of GCC they ship with OS X since it has a bug which interferes with our product, and they reply (paraphrased) "gcc isn't ours, we don't have to fix it". HELLO -- it's already been fixed, we're just asking you to update it...it's a 1-line include file fix. Long story short, as far as high-performance computing and compilers go, I think if you speculate on a joint venture it'd make most IBMers (and probably most Apple employees) naucious.

No comment.

	07-12-2004 07:02									#17
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I don't have a grammar-checker installed for my posts, unfortunately.

	07-12-2004 07:05									#18
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Yeah, I saw that too, Aggie.

	07-12-2004 07:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's pretty funny, but unlikely. What would happen to, "Do you use IBM or Apple?"

Agathon: Can you say "the IBM Macintosh?"

Nah, I think it'd actually better if IBM and Apple just formed a stronger partnership and with the success of the iPod and such I don't think Steve Jobs would ever allow his company to be sold. Apple just has too much of a bright future to sell itself.

Asher: On a second note, IBM does have good strategic reason to form a strong partnership with Apple. The reason is because it undermines Microsoft, it's old enemy. IBM is already undermining Microsoft by being the largest financial supporter of Linux; it could do even more to undermine Microsoft by also supporting Apple.

'Nuff said.

	07-12-2004 07:08									#20
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quote: Asher: On a second note, IBM does have good strategic reason to form a strong partnership with Apple. The reason is because it undermines Microsoft, it's old enemy. IBM is already undermining Microsoft by being the largest financial supporter of Linux; it could do even more to undermine Microsoft by also supporting Apple.

Hey genius, why would they undermine their own initiative which they've spent billions on (Linux) in order to populate it with another competitor?

Microsoft isn't really IBM's enemy. The management that resents Microsoft is long gone, and now Microsoft is desperately trying to enter IBM's markets, without success. Meanwhile, IBM is entering new markets with great success.

IBM is turning into a low-volume high-margin "solutions" and services company. That's in Sam Palmisano's manifesto.

There is simply zero chance of this idle speculation from The Register tabloid of being remotely close to being true.

	07-12-2004 07:13									#21
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quote: I don't have a grammar-checker installed for my posts, unfortunately.

1) That is not a grammatical mistake, although one could pick at other parts of your post (but people who live in glass houses...).

2) Mac OS X contains a system wide spell checker (it picks up all my typos), so you really should think about changing your operating system to a modern, user-friendly one that includes such necessary functions.

	07-12-2004 07:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon 1) That is not a grammatical mistake, although one could pick at other parts of your post (but people who live in glass houses...).

It's picked up by the Lotus "Grammar Checker", which includes a spell checker. Thank you for being pedantic, though.

quote: 2) Mac OS X contains a system wide spell checker (it picks up all my typos), so you really should think about changing your operating system to a modern, user-friendly one that includes such necessary functions.

Or I could install one for Windows, but unfortunately I consider that bloat (it is), and I prefer to have a high-performance machine.

This is not a formal place, and does not necessitate having a spell checker or grammar checker. People can understand what I'm trying to say, and that's all I need.

I find it rather pathetic you need to use one in such an informal place...

	07-12-2004 07:18									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Hey genius, why would they undermine their own initiative which they've spent billions on (Linux) in order to populate it with another competitor?

Hey , because it achieves the same goal: Undermining Microsoft.

quote: Microsoft is desperately trying to enter IBM's markets, without success. Meanwhile, IBM is entering new markets with great success.

quote: IBM is turning into a low-volume high-margin "solutions" and services company. That's in Sam Palmisano's manifesto.

If you didn't already know, Apple has a 30% profit margin.

	07-12-2004 07:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Hey , because it achieves the same goal: Undermining Microsoft.

No, it doesn't. You do not undermine a competitor who is WHERE they are because of a monopoly by throwing in a disparate array of incompatible systems...

Besides, the people have spoken. OS X's market share is decreasing, why would that be beneficial to IBM?

Plus, it's not IBM's goal to undermine Microsoft. It's IBM's goal to run a very profitable company.

quote: If you didn't already know, Apple has a 30% profit margin.

Apple's 2003 Revenue: $6,207,000,000
Apple's 2003 Net Income: $69,000,000
Percentage: 1.1%

IBM's 2003 Revenue: $23,429,000,000
IBM's 2003 Net Income: $1,800,000,000
Percentage: 7.7%

	07-12-2004 07:27									#25
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quote: Or I could install one for Windows, but unfortunately I consider that bloat (it is), and I prefer to have a high-performance machine.

I wish I could remember the last time that Applespell degraded my machine's performance in any noticeable fashion.

quote: This is not a formal place, and does not necessitate having a spell checker or grammar checker. People can understand what I'm trying to say, and that's all I need. I find it rather pathetic you need to use one in such an informal place...

Adhering to the spelling and grammatical rules of the English language is a courtesy to others. As such, it is something you should try to extend to anyone to whom you wish to communicate in writing.

The kind of voluntary illiteracy you are suggesting is something no right-thinking person would endorse. Who, apart from prancing performance artists, postmodern poets and their ilk, deliberately wishes to be misunderstood?

Are you seriously suggesting that something that can improve the quality of human communication is a waste of time, just because it's on a Macintosh?

	07-12-2004 07:31									#26
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quote: Are you seriously suggesting that something that can improve the quality of human communication is a waste of time, just because it's on a Macintosh?

The quality of my human communication is just fine -- you can understand perfectly what I'm trying to communicate.

What is a waste of time is a global spellchecker that uses your RAM and processor cycles checking spelling when you don't want it to, or don't need it to.

If you think the communication of this post has been hindered because I didn't run it through a spellchecker, then you're totally out to lunch.

	07-12-2004 07:36									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, it doesn't. You do not undermine a competitor who is WHERE they are because of a monopoly by throwing in a disparate array of incompatible systems... Besides, the people have spoken. OS X's market share is decreasing, why would that be beneficial to IBM?

I wouldn't speak so soon on that until we've seen what kind of effect iPod sales have had on sales of Macintosh computers.

quote: Plus, it's not IBM's goal to undermine Microsoft.

Of course it's not their goal, but it's what they've been doing for years.

quote: Apple's 2003 Revenue: $6,207,000,000 Apple's 2003 Net Income: $69,000,000 Percentage: 1.1% IBM's 2003 Revenue: $23,429,000,000 IBM's 2003 Net Income: $1,800,000,000 Percentage: 7.7%

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/oct/13results.html
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jul/14results.html
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/apr/14results.html
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jan/14results.html

	07-12-2004 07:38									#28
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quote: The quality of my human communication is just fine -- you can understand perfectly what I'm trying to communicate.

Sometimes I can't. That is because communication involves attributing reasonable beliefs to the person with whom you are communicating.

quote: What is a waste of time is a global spellchecker that uses your RAM and processor cycles checking spelling when you don't want it to, or don't need it to.

Again, you need a modern, efficient operating system. Activity Monitor tells me that Applespell is using 0% of CPU capacity and a whopping 1.5 megs of RAM. Man.. am I ****ed or what?

Unless I am writing some sort of abstract expressionist novel, why would I not want my stuff spellchecked? As I said, it is a courtesy to others... manners maketh the man.

	07-12-2004 09:47									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Again, you need a modern, efficient operating system. Activity Monitor tells me that Applespell is using 0% of CPU capacity and a whopping 1.5 megs of RAM. Man.. am I ****ed or what?

You really think the program works without the CPU?

It's not something you can guage the impact with by looking at the CPU usage at any given point. They work by intercepting all keyboard input in a buffer and then analyzing it.

I don't want that **** on my computer...

quote: Of course it's not their goal, but it's what they've been doing for years.

Actually, they haven't. Their big "linux" push has dick-all to do with defeating Microsoft, it has to do with competing with the upcoming low-cost servers. Microsoft doesn't even compete in the markets where IBM pushes Linux, usually.

quote: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/oct/13results.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jul/14results.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/apr/14results.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jan/14results.html

Not sure what you're trying to do here.

My figures are from Apple's SEC filings.

What you're looking at is fancy dressed up numbers (gross profit means nothing, look at net income...).

The numbers I posted are what investors care about, and what the companies care about. At the end of the day, minus all costs, how much you brought home.

When you look at it as a percentage of revenue, Apple is about 1%, IBM is nearly 8%...Microsoft is 22% (go figure, their software production costs are very low).

	07-12-2004 09:49									#30
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It's amazing the lengths some people will go to in order to justify the fact that they can't spell.