07-12-2004 15:29									#1
	AU Mod - the Panzer Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As stated in my DAR to AU 505, the Panzer, as a UU, sucks. Why?


Currently the difference between Panzers and Tanks is only the one movement point. In previous versions (Vanilla and PTW), Tanks didn't have the Blitz ability. While the AI can sometimes profit from it, the human always does. What I mean is doing 2 attacks one after another in a turn, yielding an army of Elites in no time. 3 attacks against Infantry would often be suicide, so it's rarely an option. Currently Tanks have nearly the same Elite-producing capabilities as Panzers, which means the advantage of having a UU is lost.

At the same time, Panzers are not very good for battles without Artillery support, which hurts the AI. They can kill Infantry, yes, but not in big cities and definately not with Civil Defense in the city (AI loves to have this improvement in metros). Also, they often start running into TOW Infantry and Mech Infantry soon after becoming available. This leads to losses agains other AIs more often than expected, because (unlike Cavalry) Panzers are not used in numbers that would guarantee overrunning the defenders (by using the retreat ability to weaken them). Also, AI will often have many units defending metros (all, not only the capital), which gives the retreat ability even less meaning. One other reason for this is that TOW Infantry has the AI Offense flag checked, which means less Panzers built overall. All that leads to the AI using small stacks or even solitary Panzers for attacking, which is quite useless.

Another thing is the AI use of very fast units. They will often try to attack deep into enemy territory, and can be lured with Workers or weaker units. As there is no defender that can move 3 tiles, the Panzers end their turns in perfectly exposed (read: suicidal) positions, and get slaughtered. This is a problem with all fast moving units, but it shows more due to the increased speed of Panzers and due to the time when they are available. One could argue that those are the Riders of the Industrial age. Well, wrong. Riders don't have to face Railroaded enemies that simply cannot be outrun in their territory!


In my AU 505 game the Germans and the dutch were about same size right until the Industrial Era. Then they had a long war, part of it in Golden Age (yes, triggered by Panzers), but were unable to take a single city. The war started even before the Dutch knew how to build TOW Infantry, Mech Infantry, or Tanks, but that didn't help. Not even the fact that some Dutch cities sat close to German borders seemed to matter. Definately not the performance one would expect from a UU combined with Golden Age.


Finally, some suggestions:

• Revert to the Tank from PTW, without the Blitz ability, to make Panzers more apt at becoming Elites in similar situations, thus distinguishing the UU more from it's normal counterpart.
  
• Increase the attack value of Panzers, to accomodate for the small number of those in AI forces.
  
• Increase the defense value of Panzers, so they can survive a little longer in enemy territory.

	07-12-2004 16:53									#2
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I'm essentially positive that tanks did have Blitz in PtW. I have some memories of taking advantage of that ability in an AU game that are clear enough that it's hard for me to imagine I could be mistaken. But panzers can make a bit more use of their blitz ability because they can use a full movement point before their first attack and still have two attacks left. In contrast, if a tank uses a full movement point before attacking, it only has one move left and therefore cannot take advantage of its blitz capability. (Of course if the attacker is too aggressive in attacking a second time with injured units, a greater ability to use blitz may do more harm than good.)

I don't think i've used panzers yet in C3C, but I've used them to good effect on more than one occasion in earlier incarnations of Civ. I don't view the Panzer as one of the best UUs in the game, but I think it's good enough that there is no need to change it.

	07-12-2004 17:04									#3
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Yes, the 3 movement points are good in human hands. There's no denying that.

The AI, however, does badly. If a GA and a UU, no doubt combined with Mobilization, can't allow the German AI to at least hurt another AI, then something is wrong, don't you think?

	07-12-2004 17:32									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Yes, the 3 movement points are good in human hands. There's no denying that. The AI, however, does badly. If a GA and a UU, no doubt combined with Mobilization, can't allow the German AI to at least hurt another AI, then something is wrong, don't you think?

First of all, I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from a single data point. The nature of random chance is that strange things happen every now and then, so it's hard to tell whether a single event reflects a pattern or a relatively rare exception.

But even if AIs typically make poor use of panzers, that doesn't mean we need to change the unit. One of the realities of Civ 3 is that some UUs are more potent than others. Our general policy in the AU Mod has been to leave UUs alone unless there are strong arguments that a UU can be a disadvantage rather than an advantage at least part of the time. That is clearly not the case with the Panzer.

	07-12-2004 18:23									#5
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay But even if AIs typically make poor use of panzers, that doesn't mean we need to change the unit. One of the realities of Civ 3 is that some UUs are more potent than others. Our general policy in the AU Mod has been to leave UUs alone unless there are strong arguments that a UU can be a disadvantage rather than an advantage at least part of the time. That is clearly not the case with the Panzer.

Uhm, I thought I said that it actually is. The fast moves lead the AI to expose Panzers more than Tanks. They move far into enemy territory, becoming easier targets for counter-attacks. If you consider the 3 moves good, consider also that the AI will be more likely to go for very distant cities (2 moves + attack), making the Panzers sitting ducks, far from any defensive support.

	07-12-2004 19:03									#6
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Modo44, what evidence are you basing your analysis on? In my experience (which I'll admit is somewhat limited, especially lately), it seems like conventional AI tanks usually don't have a defensive escort. If that's true, the situation with panzers is not particularly different.

	07-12-2004 20:19									#7
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It is true that the AI will use the Panzer's extra movement point to strike further into enemy territory than Tanks can. But the AI already does this with Cavalry.

In terms of AI versus AI warfare, there's nothing you can really do about this, because it's all about attrition; the AI routinely sends a Cavalry/Panzer to finish off a Longbowmen sitting out in the open, only to have its Cavaly/Panzer caught in the open by another Longbowmen the next turn. While you could argue that Germany loses its Tanks more often to this form of attrition because its Panzers get caught in the open more often, I think that extra movement point's advantages are significant in the hands of AI. Significant enough that Germans definitely have an advantage in AI-AI Tank warfare.

In terms of human versus AI, well, Panzers are more interesting than Tanks to fight against because they threaten a larger area (i.e. further into your territory). The only time that Panzers will consistently get caught in the open is if you play sloppily and consistently leave units in the open. You could exploit this "sloppy" play and consistently leave certain cities undefended or crappy units in the open to lure the fast Panzers to their doom. But I think we can all agree that this is an exploit that is not particular to Panzers.

My own thoughts on the Panzer is that it is fine as is. No UU is really meant to completely dominate an era, at least in the hands of the AI. Feelings that the Panzer does not do enough are intertwined with the fact that the late Industrial era is "game over" and that it's not really important what unit you have, as long as you have a bunch of them (i.e. your productive capacity is greater than the AI's - usually the case). The Panzer is fun to use, and is interesting to play against. That's the best you can hope for in the late-game where game balance goes out the window.

	08-12-2004 20:28									#8
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i agree,the panzer is fine.the AI uses all of its units badly,so you should play on sid if you want them to be strong,or give the AI's units with doubled stats(wich would need a mod)

the panzer is already good,and if it was more strong,you would complain how the human player can always win with it

	10-12-2004 03:39									#9
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To me, this seems like a minor imbalance. If anything, I'd increase the defense value of panzers to 9 or 10, so that the A/D ratio resembles that of the AU mod's modern armor (24/14).

	10-12-2004 20:41									#10
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Tanks are very good for their price and rising defence value would not be a good thing. It is just, Modern Armour is too good even with lowered defence in AU mod. I would have lowered defense by 2 points more to 24/12, but it is so late in tech tree that it does not matter anyway.