07-12-2004 19:43									#1
	Cathedrals and Colloseums: Do you build them? Suffering from ads?

On Monarch and below, I used to build these but now that I play Emporer, I find I would rather trade for luxuries and use the lux slider. My cities never get past size 12 anyway and with 3 or 4 luxes plus marketplaces, I find I can keep the people happy enough without these expensive buildings.

Or am I missing something?

	07-12-2004 20:36									#2
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If I don't get Bachs I'll probably build one or the other.

If I'm religious, or I get Sistines, I'll probably build cathedrals.

As non religious I've been toying with skipping temples and just building colleseumss in the core instead, and it depends on the day whether I think that is a good idea or not, despite what these number crunching builderers will adamantly say that it is definately not.

The buildings aren't so much for keeping folks out of rioting in my experience, markets, lux and the slider are far better for that, but for waging war with a govt that causes WW and inspiring WLTKD.

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 08-12-2004 at 02:59

	07-12-2004 20:37									#3
	Got spare money?

If you don't bring them past size 12, you probably can get by with luxuries.

The advantage of caths and cols over the lux slider is that the money you were using straight-up for the lux slider gets a +100% bonus (or even +150% later on), if you've built the right buildings, when it's shifted to gold or science. As such, while the two do cost maintenance, the luxury slider savings can more than make up for that, leading to a net gain in commerce. (However, this does nothing to bring that shield cost down.)

Also, ever tried a religious civ with the Sistine Chapel? Far better than trading for luxuries. When you're religious, cathedrals are much easier to build and definitely worth it.

	07-12-2004 21:42									#4
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx As non religious I've been toying with skipping temples and just building cathedrals in the core instead, and it depends on the day whether I think that is a good idea or not, despite what these number crunching builderers will adamantly say that it is definately not.

Definately not a good idea, since Cathedrals require Temples.

	07-12-2004 22:48									#5
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Which is why I've been toying with the concept of grabbing the ToA in order to be able to build cathedrals in the core before hitting Edu. I don't think it's worthwhile, generally speaking, though

Oh, and UnO might mean he sells temples after cathedrals are built (1gpt for one content face isn't always a great deal, largely depending on factors Kloreep outlined.)

	07-12-2004 23:19									#6
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I usually build one or te other, depending on circumstances. I like Cathedrals more, because I'm addicted to building the Sistine Chapel. Very often it's a colosseum somewhere near the end of build queues - naturally because of imported luxuries.

One thing that can make Cathedrals and Colosseums better than luxuries, is lack of the latter. Especially on archipelago maps a single war can cut you mucho-unhappy in a turn, causing severe problems (unless you have Navigation, of course). The buildings help as a backup then, allowing to keep the lux slider relatively low.

	07-12-2004 23:31									#7
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Why would you ever build a colloseum over a cathedral? The only reasons I can think of are tech level and shield cost.

The tech level reason is virtually non-existent in my games, though I don't know about others. Construction is generally my last AA tech and Monotheism is usually my third MA tech at worst. Unless you're beelining to Constr. (I can't see why anyone would in your typical game) or you're beelining to MT (understandable) your colosseum window is very small. You will probably pick up Mono from an AI by the time you're at Chem. anyway, especially if you want to build knights to upgrade.

The shield cost could be valid in a few very specific situations, but generally if you're building one of these you already have a large city and the worst case scenario is it will take eight extra turns. For your investment you get a "free" content citizen for as long as the improvement stays in existence, not to mention a "bonus" culture, which may or may not have any value to you. Also, you may find yourself with a total of four "free" content citizens should you acquire the SC by one means or another.

Oh, and to add to your points of why you may want a city improvement vs. a luxury is for WLT*D. A city could have a ton of luxuries and still be stuck with 10 happy citizens and one unhappy. If instead of a luxury or two you had a temple/cathedral, that could solve the problem.

	07-12-2004 23:49									#8
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Which is why I've been toying with the concept of grabbing the ToA in order to be able to build cathedrals in the core before hitting Edu. I don't think it's worthwhile, generally speaking, though.

I just did this in AU505. After Education, I had Cathedrals in most of my cities, but no Temples! Though I agree that it is not generally such a strong play, in my game I was lucky enough to get a SGL to rush the Temple of Artemis, and so in this case it seemed worthwhile.

	08-12-2004 00:01									#9
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Yes, that's the primary case I was thinking of. Playing a high enough level where the only wonder left to rush with the SGL is the ToA, but still far enough from the juicy MA wonders (especially if you're falling behind in the tech race [not that I'm saying you were, I haven't even started AU505 and have not, as such read your DAR(s)])

	08-12-2004 01:10									#10
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Meant Colleseums, skipping both temples and caths.

That's what I get for posting at that hour of the morning

	08-12-2004 01:29									#11
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If Religious, I'll generally build Catherials much earlier than they are actually needed. (Like a whole bunch with Monotheism.)

If non-Religious, Catherdrials get built when needed to maintaign WLTPD after Temples and Market Places. The more luxaries I have access to, the longer I'll wait.

Colososseums are last, when the city even with Temples, Marketsplaces, and Catherdrials still needs Colosseums to keep a WLTPD.

On Emperor and above, it's actually much the same except that with a shortage of luxaries, Catherdrials may be needed just to keep order under Republic / Democracy, and it's much more likely that the 12th citizen would be unhappy without a Collosum.

	08-12-2004 01:45									#12
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I almost never build colisseums. May build cathedrals if I don't have a lot of luxuries. Will definitely build them if get Sistine Chapel. Would rather build libraries and then universities if on builder-mode.

	08-12-2004 02:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Yes, that's the primary case I was thinking of. Playing a high enough level where the only wonder left to rush with the SGL is the ToA, but still far enough from the juicy MA wonders (especially if you're falling behind in the tech race.

Actually, I had my pick of Ancient era Wonders...and I chose the Temple of Artemis over the Pyramids!!

	08-12-2004 03:46									#14
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Looks like the consensus is to build Cathedrals, even if not religious. I dunno, every time I think about building one I look at Banks, Universities or Knights and I think those are better choices.

In my current game, the AI beat me to Sistine Chapel while I got Leonardo's Workshop and Sun Tzu. Thing of it is, the AI built SC on a 1 city island so it isn't even worth going to war over.

stupid. stupid. stupid.

	08-12-2004 04:00									#15
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Sistine Chapel works for every Cathedral in every city. It doesn't need to be on the same continent.

	08-12-2004 19:36									#16
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Don't you want the culture points?

	08-12-2004 20:48									#17
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Personally, I do. But the higher the difficulty level, the more I have to worry about surviving. Culture is seldom a part of that.

	08-12-2004 22:07									#18
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If the Catherdial is the difference between a city being in a WLTPD and not being in one, it's the better investment.
If the city wouldn't be in a WLTPD even with a Catherdrial, it's not a paricularly good investement unless needed just for order.
Or of course if your Religious and it's therefore cheap anyway.

Similarly, Scientific civs should build Scentific structures early.

I don't usually build that many Knights, It's much more common for me to build the Horsemen I need before Chivary, and then upgrade.

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Looks like the consensus is to build Cathedrals, even if not religious. I dunno, every time I think about building one I look at Banks, Universities or Knights and I think those are better choices.

	09-12-2004 00:23									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Sistine Chapel works for every Cathedral in every city. It doesn't need to be on the same continent.

Egad! I never noticed that before! Learn something new every day I guess.

	09-12-2004 00:32									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Basically, the contiential wonders are:
1. Every wonder that counts as a city improvement
2. Bachs.

	09-12-2004 00:47									#21
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I'll give you another reson to leave Cathedrals or Colosseums alone. They are fairly expensive structures that can be used as prebuilds for Factories, assuming you can't use Banks or Universities.

Of course, maintaining WLTKD still has priority.

	09-12-2004 21:33									#22
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On Monarchy level running a Republic / Democracy. Non-religious / Non-scientific

0 luxaries
Don't run Republic / Democracy

1 luxary
10% luxary slider
City Build Order : Temple, Catherdrial, Libary, Market Place, University, Bank

2 Luxaries
10% luxary slider
City build order : Temple, Libary, Market Place, Catherdrial, University, Bank

3 luxaries
0% luxary slider
City build order : Temple, Libary, Market Place, Catherdrial, University, Bank

4 luxaries, either build Catherdrial early for a WLTPD or if too late delay until needed to keep order

5+ luxaries, Catherdrial whenever needed to maintain a WLTPD

Last edited by joncnunn on 09-12-2004 at 21:47

	13-12-2004 01:39									#23
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I haven't built a Coliseum or a Cathedral in a looooooong time...

	14-12-2004 05:04									#24
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On demi and higher, not that I go much higher , you will often run into culture problems when a civ on another continent expands -- they can win by culture before it is easy to attack them. Culture builds are important to slow that down.

Generally, however, happiness buildings are built from necessity, when lux are scarce, or modern cathedrals are built after factories / Hoovers, since they are useful and cheap then.

I don't keep cathedrals as prebuilds because a coliseum is a preferred alternative for that purpose.

By the way, I've also downgraded banks to be a post-factory build as well. I noted above that some people build banks regularly. But they just don't seem to make much difference. Is that generally an agreed point?

	14-12-2004 05:54									#25
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Banks are a prereq for stock exchange IIRC. If you want to build Wall Street, you need 5 cities with them.

Beyond that, I will build a bank if it can pay for itself and I have nothing pressing to build in that city.

	14-12-2004 11:21									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

Banks are basically the builder option in the late Medieval/early Industrial era when you're trying to maximize your cities. Obviously if you have more important things to be building (like an army) then Banks aren't so very important, but they definitely pay for themselves and then some if you build them in large enough cities.

	15-12-2004 22:29									#27
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Banks are best when you're not sellling tech for high gpt to the AI. While you're raking it in with the Sci slider on 100%, Banks do nothing most of the time.

If I've got Smiths I might build them despite this as there's no upkeep and even at 100% research you still pull the slider back for the last turn - where the banks can do their stuff.

As for Cathedrals (Catherdrials?) - definitely if Religious, or if short of luxuries. Modo made a good point about the perils of luxury-trading pre-navigation on island maps. Otherwise only prioritised if setting up a size 12 city while the rest are much smaller, or if there's an urgent need for culture and Lit isn't available for some reason.

	16-12-2004 00:06									#28
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Banks vs Univeristys in Conquests

If a Scientific -> University.

Otherwise, if Science Slider <= 40% : Bank
if Science Slider >= 60% : University

Tiebreaker for 50% : If 50% produces a tech every 4 turns : Bank. [Your probably in a GA] Otherwise University.

	23-12-2004 23:21									#29
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I like to build just about everything. Seriously, being a straight-out warmonger is booooring, and as I've repeatedly argued, not at all the most effective Pillar for strategy. So, yeah, if I can get them built in a reasonable period of time, I'll build both Cathedrals and Colosseums... which one first, and whether or not to build both, are obviously determined as per the considerations above in the thread, for each particular city/game.

	23-12-2004 23:46									#30
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I always build one or the other. It seems I am yet to explore some of the more esoteric strategies... I can say that I'm more likely to build Cathedrals -despite the increased costs because I'm usually going for a wonder that will multiply the happiness effect.