10-12-2004 03:29									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Because the recognition of marriage has benefits for the society that can only be found within the union of a man and a woman.

I would say something in response to this, however Ming would ban me so unfrtunately I must hold my tongue

	10-12-2004 03:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First of all, do you admit that the majority of the people oppose gay marriage? Secondly, you are very right. Why should it be right for society to restrict marriage to one man and one woman? Why doesn't society recognise all partnerships, of any sort on par with marriage? Because the recognition of marriage has benefits for the society that can only be found within the union of a man and a woman.

There was a time when the majority of Americans supported Jim Crow laws.

Secondly, to grant equal marriage protection and privileges of couples of same gender, does not take away benefits for heterosexual couples who are married.

	10-12-2004 03:29									#63
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Yeah, if we went by what most people wanted, it would have been illegal for me to marry my wife. Sometimes the majority is wrong. That's why we have an independent judiciary.

	10-12-2004 03:34									#64
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quote: There was a time when the majority of Americans supported Jim Crow laws.

Do gays have to ride the back of the bus?

Are there washrooms for gay, and not-gay?

Are there schools for the gay, and not gay?

Where is this Jim Crow? We have no Jim Crow here in Canada. To compare the two, is to grossly misrepresent the situation in the US, where black men could be hung for violating Jim Crow laws. Where is the equivalent here?

quote: Secondly, to grant equal marriage protection and privileges of couples of same gender, does not take away benefits for heterosexual couples who are married.

True, but this is no longer about equal rights, but rather, whether one group of people ought to recieve special benefits not accorded to others.

	10-12-2004 03:36									#65
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quote: Yeah, if we went by what most people wanted, it would have been illegal for me to marry my wife. Sometimes the majority is wrong. That's why we have an independent judiciary.

What independent judiciary? A majority of the court has been packed with nominees of Mssr. Chretien. Up here, the PM can directly appoint justices.

	10-12-2004 03:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Do gays have to ride the back of the bus? Are there washrooms for gay, and not-gay? Are there schools for the gay, and not gay? Where is this Jim Crow? We have no Jim Crow here in Canada. To compare the two, is to grossly misrepresent the situation in the US, where black men could be hung for violating Jim Crow laws. Where is the equivalent here?

See, yet again you seem to be unable to interpret the point correctly. He's not saying the two are exactly the same, but rather pointing out instances where it is now commonly accepted that the majority of people are incorrect.

Personally, I label the majority incorrect when they become hateful and bigoted towards a specific group.

But thats just me

	10-12-2004 03:40									#67
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quote: Sure, but why should I pay for the benefits? As such, I do get a say into marriage, as does everyone else here in Canada.

Good lord, why didn't you say so?! I never realised that part of the bill meant you had to pay towards the wedding ceremonies. Or do you mean that you're paying through lack of tax paid on lawyers' fees that will be lost from gay spouses having to go through the courts to get rights such as next of kin? Seriously, how much does it cost to allow two two men to marry?

	10-12-2004 03:41									#68
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quote: Ah of course, you want to roll out the most vocal hicks to vote against 'those horrible puffs'.

Like this fellow, whom I quoted above?

	10-12-2004 03:45									#69
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quote: Good lord, why didn't you say so?! I never realised that part of the bill meant you had to pay towards the wedding ceremonies.

Spousal benefits provided come out of taxpayers' pockets.

Gay marriage isn't a private issue, in fact, it is essentially a public issue, since how can you have a marriage recognised without a public witness?

If you want to make all marriages private, then all spousal benefits need to be tossed.

	10-12-2004 03:52									#70
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Can you just give me one example of a spousal benefit that the taxpayers provide for, just so I can get my head around it, please?

	10-12-2004 03:54									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Spousal benefits provided come out of taxpayers' pockets. Gay marriage isn't a private issue, in fact, it is essentially a public issue, since how can you have a marriage recognised without a public witness? If you want to make all marriages private, then all spousal benefits need to be tossed.

Why should single people subsidise the married then? This argument could go on ad infinitum...

	10-12-2004 03:55									#72
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Plus the witnesses are hardly just dragged in off the street now, they are people who the couple know.

Why do persist on being such a bigot Ben, it doesn't make any sense? Who are you to stand in judgement?

	10-12-2004 04:05									#73
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Well if being a witness is an issue , I'm pretty certain that he won't be invited to any gay marriages, much less forced to witness them. It's not like jury service

	10-12-2004 04:07									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Like this fellow, whom I quoted above?

And who is this Mr Moustachio?

	10-12-2004 04:11									#75
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Socialist dreamer.

	10-12-2004 04:33									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First of all, do you admit that the majority of the people oppose gay marriage? Secondly, you are very right. Why should it be right for society to restrict marriage to one man and one woman? Why doesn't society recognise all partnerships, of any sort on par with marriage? Because the recognition of marriage has benefits for the society that can only be found within the union of a man and a woman.

First of all, I don't give a flying f*** how the majority of people would vote. It shouldn't be a popularity contest.

Secondly, your belief that society benefits ONLY from a male-female marriage is a load of horseshit.

Is there a thirdly you'd like to drag out?

	10-12-2004 04:38									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True, but this is no longer about equal rights, but rather, whether one group of people ought to recieve special benefits not accorded to others.

You can't win with this line of reasoning. Either gay marriages don't afford special benefits not accorded to others, or the status quo affords benefits not accorded to others. Which is it?

	10-12-2004 05:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Do gays have to ride the back of the bus? Are there washrooms for gay, and not-gay? Are there schools for the gay, and not gay? Where is this Jim Crow? We have no Jim Crow here in Canada. To compare the two, is to grossly misrepresent the situation in the US, where black men could be hung for violating Jim Crow laws. Where is the equivalent here? True, but this is no longer about equal rights, but rather, whether one group of people ought to recieve special benefits not accorded to others.

Comrade Tassadar beat me to this because I was eating dinner. And he got it right.


You were either deliberately trying to make a lame attempt to distort the point of my analogy, or, you made an honest mistake in misunderstanding my analogy.

If you misunderstood it, then either you were not completely alert to the point, or you have poor argumentation skills.


So which one was it -- deliberate distortion, or an honest mistake?

	10-12-2004 05:22									#79
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So which one was it -- deliberate distortion, or an honest mistake?

We've been on this merry-go-round enough time to know that BK is a bigot and doesn't just misunderstand.

	10-12-2004 05:23									#80
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I know -- but it would be nice if I could corner him to being on record, on choosing the right one among the two.

	10-12-2004 05:25									#81
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quote: First of all, I don't give a flying f*** how the majority of people would vote. It shouldn't be a popularity contest.

So you don't care for parliament at all? Why not abolish it altogether, and appoint a King?

quote: Secondly, your belief that society benefits ONLY from a male-female marriage is a load of horseshit.

I hear denials. I hear accusations. What I don't see is a cogent counterargument.

Plus this is a strawman. I am saying that society benefits in a unique way from traditional marriage. This does not say there are no benefits from other partnerships, but rather, not all partnerships provide the same benefits to society.

	10-12-2004 05:26									#82
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Hooray for Canada.

Lord, I miss living right across the border from an honest-to-goodness 21st Century civilization.

	10-12-2004 05:27									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Plus this is a strawman.

Like the strawman you conjured up in response to my analogy, right?

	10-12-2004 05:28									#84
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quote: Either gay marriages don't afford special benefits not accorded to others, or the status quo affords benefits not accorded to others. Which is it?

The latter. Not all discrimination is wrong, you'll see that ameliorative benefits are specifically provided for under section 15 of the Canadian charter.

	10-12-2004 05:29									#85
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quote: You were either deliberately trying to make a lame attempt to distort the point of my analogy, or, you made an honest mistake in misunderstanding my analogy.

You made a poor analogy. Jim Crow hanged blacks. Where are gay people being hung by the rednecks you so despise?

	10-12-2004 05:31									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You made a poor analogy. Jim Crow is not Canada. Gay people are not hung for 'getting beyond themselves'.

You didn't answer my question. You're continuing to make the distortion by ignoring the real point of the analogy, and instead, claiming that the point was that Jim Crow laws is the same, exact experience that gays have in United States, Canada, and elsewhere.



I give you 2.3 out of 10 for failure to make a more clever dodge of my question.

	10-12-2004 05:32									#87
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Just out of interest, will you be using the "why should I have to pay for their marriage benefits?" line in the next one of these threads, or are there any examples of these costly benefits that you can provide? You've got me curious, don't ignore me now please, you can ignore me after the example :P

	10-12-2004 05:34									#88
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quote: Can you just give me one example of a spousal benefit that the taxpayers provide for, just so I can get my head around it, please?

Gibsie:

Not a problem.

Sorry for the delay.

One benefit, spouses get, is to share their household income with each other, which allows them to reduce their income tax.

	10-12-2004 05:36									#89
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quote: Why do persist on being such a bigot Ben, it doesn't make any sense? Who are you to stand in judgement?

Where have I called any of the Poly crew a sinner?

	10-12-2004 05:37									#90
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One more time, Ben . . . . . .




did you make an honest mistake with my analogy, or did you deliberately attempt to distort the point of the analogy?