12-12-2004 00:11									#61
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If you do all of that, you could have Vox and RP make a settler and have them send it into the heart of our land. That way they are both safe, so long as we are.

This will be clear soon I think. If GoW gets the fort city, they should propose taking out Vox and offer us that land for RP as a big carrot.

This protects them from any UN tricks. They then have only to figure out what to do with ND. This is the hardest one. They cannot ally with them against us and win, so they may try to do an ally with Vox and ND.

In that scenario, they do what we are tring, but take out RP and damage us. Now they have two votes and no one else does.

If they only eliminat RP, they can't lose to the vote. If they also eliminate us, they can win the vote.

	12-12-2004 00:11									#62
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Aren't we scheduled to get Fission in Trade from either ND or GoW? I expect Uranium-vision is the priority for them. We need either a leader from the next couple of turns or a prebuild scheduled for the date we recieve that tech.

I have to go out now, and I MUST do some work tomorrow, but I'll discuss this more asap. The settler thing at the poles is good, and we want to say soon to Vox something like 'We can keep you not only alive till the end of the game, but can make you a winning partner'. I think it's our best chance of winning.

	12-12-2004 00:13									#63
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Finally - the more I think about this the more I reckon MZ will be thinking about it too. He keeps talking about his diplo skills in public. Sleepy? Are you ready to resume your cordial relations with Rhotherill?

	12-12-2004 00:19									#64
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I can do anything asked of me, but I don't want to screw anything up!

do we have a spy in Vox yet? Can we steal plans if they don't have any cities?

Would lego be willing to be buried deep in the heart of ND? Hell, ND could easily tuck and protect both ND and Lego in their belly.

	12-12-2004 00:32									#65
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No more time to spend on this, I'm afraid. I just got some unexpected visitors (sometimes they remind me I've got a social life too).

We need to discover fission ourselves, no question about that. We can't risk someone else prebuilding the UN... without it, we won't even be ligelible for voting.

Hold a moment before contacting anyone, this is just a wild idea. And yes, maybe MZ had the same one... but they have to take us out in order to do it (and RP as well, but that's not a problem).

Lego being rescued by ND... interesting thought. Only. somehow I don't see ND proposing that. And for as far as I know him, Vondrack is too proud to fall from one of the main competitors to a puppet in one turn.

DeepO

	12-12-2004 01:32									#66
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I don't think Vox will go along with it as things stand now. Almost sure of it. The only way I see the Diplomatic victory working is if we offer to abide by a coin-flip to see who gets voted for. Since RP are in our pocket, it would give us a 50/50 shot at winning. Vox gets a 50/50 shot too. To make sure RP goes along with it we might want to include them too though. We might negotiate the odds a bit given "power", as Vox has no chance to win right now, but we do have a decent one. Or have it 33/33/33 with RP's win going to us.

"All the current and past inhabitants of Estonia/Stormia (aside from Lux ) ban together to make the little continent big."

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Vox win if we lost the coin flip. They were the only ones given a worse start than we were (though Lux's start wasn't too good, but a good share of that was diplomatic rather than RNG).

Vox is a valuable ally though, and we should try to build a closer friendship in any case. They get a free Tech when entering the Modern Era.

We may be in position to help Vox reclaim their homeland (combination FP build and Palace jump), and have RP still gain with more and better land on Lego. That would probably help us in Vox's eyes, but RP and GoW have to be along with it too. I think we should tentatively start these talks.

	12-12-2004 01:38									#67
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I agree we need to get Fission. I don't know that we have to research it ourselves unless we want to go the Diplomatic route, but Uranium is huge even if the UN isn't.

As for the Spaceship side of things, if we complete the Apollo project in EotS, would we be able to switch pre-builds through the city screen that same turn? "EotS has built the Apollo Program"->View City->Arrow keys

If so, couldn't we build the entire spaceship with no warning?

	12-12-2004 01:50									#68
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Seriously, someone must come up with an efficient counter-tactic for this blitz. honestly, doesn't it seem like an almost too potent tactic?

Rip up the roads and rails on the border. No blitz.

	12-12-2004 02:22									#69
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I have no problem with the coin flip idea with RP/Vox/GS. No matter who gets the nod, we will be seen as the winners.

This gives both of them a reason to have stayed in the game and a reason to stick to the deal.

	12-12-2004 02:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I agree we need to get Fission. I don't know that we have to research it ourselves unless we want to go the Diplomatic route, but Uranium is huge even if the UN isn't. As for the Spaceship side of things, if we complete the Apollo project in EotS, would we be able to switch pre-builds through the city screen that same turn? "EotS has built the Apollo Program"->View City->Arrow keys If so, couldn't we build the entire spaceship with no warning?

There's an idea. Do we have enough good cities?

	12-12-2004 03:36									#71
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have no problem with the coin flip idea with RP/Vox/GS. No matter who gets the nod, we will be seen as the winners. This gives both of them a reason to have stayed in the game and a reason to stick to the deal.

I wouldn't mind a coin flip where RP could win it themselves. Although there is the small matter of actually eliminating Lego. That will be no small feat given their scads of infantry, artillery and fleet.

About the spaceship, I'm not sure this game is gonna last that long. GoW, ND, and us are now all eyeing each other nervously.

	12-12-2004 05:27									#72
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Umm, it's been a long time since I've built the UN, but as I recall only a maximum of 3 civs get included on the ballot: the top two civs (according to Power, Score?), and the civ that built the UN. There is the possibility of there being only two in case the UN builder is one of the top civs.

Edit: Ok, I just checked it, and these are the official rules (from C3C - did this change from PTW?):

First Candidate: Civ that builds the UN
Second Candidate: Civ with 25% of world's population
Third Candidate: Civ with 25% of world's land area

So, this means that the ballot looks like:

1. GS - assuming we build the UN
2. ND - land area
3. GoW - population?

Without having opened the save recently, I can only assume that ND has both 25% of the world's land area, and 25% of the world's population. So it's either: us versus ND, or us versus GoW and ND.

Vox cannot win diplomatically. Personally, I would not want to have them win at all, since I prefer the strong to win (which is why I like balanced starting locations). Vox will therefore probably side with...who? Are they willing to vote for the team that drove them from their home continent? Do they really have reason to bear ND or GoW ill will?

If I remember things right, RP is in our pocket, which is a free vote for us. We cannot really expect any of the other teams to vote our way without some fancy diplomacy on our part.

It's too hard to tell who Lego will vote for if they survive, so let's assume they are completely eradicated (I think this is better for us anyway if we decide to go for the UN).

So, we have, if GoW is on the ballot:

GS: GS
GoW: GoW
ND: ND
RP: GS
Vox: ?

Vox only needs not to GoW or ND, or obstain, for us to win. Furthermore, if just one of ND or GoW is enticed to vote for us, we win.

If GoW is not on the ballot:

GS: GS
GoW: GS or ND
ND: ND
RP: GS
Vox: ?

Here, Vox's vote decides who wins. They would probably know this when the voting screen comes up.
Our challenge, therefore, is to ensure they vote for us in this case.

From both cases, it seems clear to me that we need to lean on GoW and/or Vox to win diplomatically.

	12-12-2004 06:06									#73
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We could give the UN city to to Vox or RP the turn before the vote. Vox would come at the end of the turn order, so they'd accept the city and call the vote, and at that point everyone would vote their next turn? Could Vox then give the UN city back to us and not affect the vote? In that case no one but us and Vox would see the city switch hands. Would the vote still happen if the UN were razed? Would Vox still win if they happened to be eliminated and we kept the UN intact so they win the vote?

It would be interesting to figure out how Diplomatic victory works in a PBEM. I'd rather not win diplomatically though.

	12-12-2004 06:35									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I don't think Vox will go along with it as things stand now. Almost sure of it. The only way I see the Diplomatic victory working is if we offer to abide by a coin-flip to see who gets voted for. Since RP are in our pocket, it would give us a 50/50 shot at winning. Vox gets a 50/50 shot too. To make sure RP goes along with it we might want to include them too though. We might negotiate the odds a bit given "power", as Vox has no chance to win right now, but we do have a decent one. Or have it 33/33/33 with RP's win going to us.

Fine by me, this flip coin idea. It's certainly one thing to put in the open. One problem though: RP nor Vox are going to build the UN, only we can. So they can only vote for us.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this UN thing has much chance of winning, but at least it has a chance. SS victory is going to be even harder, and winning military I don't we can do. Not because of lack of skill or resources, but simply that no team can stay at war for another year. It's too exhausting.

quote: "All the current and past inhabitants of Estonia/Stormia (aside from Lux ) ban together to make the little continent big."

Yeah, sort of like that. It's a bit utopian, but I'm sure Beta could sell it to the public.

quote: I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Vox win if we lost the coin flip. They were the only ones given a worse start than we were (though Lux's start wasn't too good, but a good share of that was diplomatic rather than RNG).

quote: Vox is a valuable ally though, and we should try to build a closer friendship in any case. They get a free Tech when entering the Modern Era.

Excellent point. No matter how things go, maybe this is something to start talking them about. We can bring them into the modern age without much problems. We could even provide them with computers (they will like that). In exchange we have the chance to win whatever they get as a free tech?

quote: We may be in position to help Vox reclaim their homeland (combination FP build and Palace jump), and have RP still gain with more and better land on Lego. That would probably help us in Vox's eyes, but RP and GoW have to be along with it too. I think we should tentatively start these talks.

As long as it is not a definate proposal, I agree. We can feel them out... but let's not promise what we can't make happen...

DeepO

	12-12-2004 06:40									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson As for the Spaceship side of things, if we complete the Apollo project in EotS, would we be able to switch pre-builds through the city screen that same turn? "EotS has built the Apollo Program"->View City->Arrow keys

Yes, with one serious sidenote: we need 2 large prebuilds (640 shields for 2 parts needed). If we can squeeze 141 spt out of WoC (I'm thinking offshore platform, nuclear plant(do we have fresh water there? I doubt it), and palace). We can than use a 500 shield prebuild (ICBM), otherwise we need 1 wonder and the palace prebuild.

We can certainly get to 1 turn after discovery of last SS tech.

DeepO

	12-12-2004 06:41									#76
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither About the spaceship, I'm not sure this game is gonna last that long. GoW, ND, and us are now all eyeing each other nervously.

I agree. Which makes the UN maybe the only small chance we get at (co-)winning.

DeepO

	12-12-2004 06:47									#77
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How it works exactly. I don't know. I would suppose that if you build the UN in a city, you get the vote screen immediately after building phase is over. Doesn't it work like that in SP?

As to 25%: I don't know. I vagelue remember us being 2nd in pop. Anyway, when we know a vote is coming up, we can boost our population. If it's only for 1-3 turns, adding our settlers to our biggest cities with food reserves should get us to at least 25% of the world population. I think that currently, we get there already once Lego is eliminated... think ND 30%, GoW 30%, and us something like 25% should be possible.

This can be counted nearly perfectly by just going ver all the cities. We know see the whole map.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 02:46									#78
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A space ship is looking a little unlikely at the moment - it just seems so far away with the speed of Lego demise demonstrating the fragility of even the mightiest of empires. The world is in shock, and diplomatic uncertainties exist for all teams.

With everything up in the air, the reward for seizing the initiative faster than our rivals could be critical. Player fatigue on all sides and a wish to see the game out sooner rather than later could well be a factor. I think this psychological factor makes a UN outcome more likely than if all teams were busy, active, and raring to play for another epoch. If Lego can get nearly finished-off they might want to call it a day. Getting trashed early gives time to maybe get back in the game. Too late to rebuild now.

If Lego are Out, we need to swoop in to be Vox's protector - maybe overtly, maybe covertly. Yes, GS drove Vox from Estonia, but we let them live - Gift No 1 whch Vox have recognised a number of times in public. Offering them Estonia back to end the game in peace on, as allies of the victors is Gift No 2. How can GoW or ND compete with that in the Diplo Ledger? I don't know about giving them the chance to win it themselves. We can't be sure about getting our pop high enough, as ND are so huge, to register and although we're not the strongest I don't think a minor power should win with it in MP.

The question is, how do we approach them without making it too obvious what we're after at first? We can't have them blabbing to their closer friends (perhaps including GoW at this point) about the UN. We need to draw them closer before getting to the nitty gritty, so we should say how we'd like to develop our friendship, work together on peaceful collaborative projects, and possibly offer them military protection. We needn't say that our first concern is that they shouldn't protect Lego, they might take that as read.

Simultaneously we stake out RP about what role for themselves they see on Lego, and whether they'd be intersted in partnering GS toward a UN win, allowing them to **** a snook at ND and GoW when the curtain comes down. With Lego already punished, they could complete their revenge. Would Togas, who likes a bit of intrigue, be interested in helping getting Vox onboard?

{EDIT - Censored Sea Oh Sea Kay}

Last edited by Cort Haus on 13-12-2004 at 03:05

	13-12-2004 04:01									#79
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How we approach Vox? Well... I see two options.

1. tech deal.

quote: Vox, if you promise to not give any of the acquried techs to Legoland (which is a bit out of the loop right now), we propose the following deal: - we give you radio, to get you into the modern age - if you get something different, we exchange computers for whatever you got as a free tech - but one big condition: you do not give any of the techs involved to Lego. If you get computers as a free tech, you don't give that to Lego. If you get something else, you still don't give that tech, or computers to Lego. The reasons might be clear for our decision: We do not want that Lego gets MIs, and stretches this war longer than it has to be. You are our guarantee there. But, and this is at least as important: we do not want to see you destroyed. Getting MI would be one of the only steps you could take in defending against GoW / ND. We very much like your existence on Lego minor (we liked you on estonia too, but faith decided otherwise), and want to actively help you in keeping that

That gives us opening enough.

Approach 2, would simply be mentioning to them, that we want a closer bond, and would be willing to at least covertly help them. The threat from GoW is great, and they might be able to help us, where we help them... only the threat of a Vox invasion could divert troops, that otherwise would invade Stormia.

I'm not sure that their return to Estonia would lure them into anything. After all... if it wasn't for defense, we don't want Estonia either. I'm not sure they're so emotionally attached to their birth ground. RP is, of course, as that was a much better place to be in. Vox is not so bad where they are now.

DeepO

BTW, CH, I've got no clue what you tried to censor, or what the censor did for you. And you're cryptic description isn't really helping

	13-12-2004 04:08									#80
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We I like getting a tech from them and them not giving MI's to Lego.

	13-12-2004 04:09									#81
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It was an auto-censor. I tried to spell C___O___C____K (as in ****-a-snook) phonetically.

	13-12-2004 04:14									#82
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Yes, the tech-deal approach looks good.

	13-12-2004 04:55									#83
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I'm not sure it is possible. Lego should receive radio this turn, or next, I'm not sure anymore. If they still get it, or are only a couple of turns away with their minimal empire, I'm quite certain they will still try for it.

One of the points in the deal of Vox with Lego, would have certainly be that Lego gets Vox's free techs. In not giving it to them, they are breaking the deal. So this might not be possible at all. But for me, we could feel them out, and start thinking on better ways of wording such a proposal to them (very tricky).

Oh, and CH... I read it like sosk, being the first letters of each word. I don't know the expression, so couldn't look at the context... and I could figure out what seas had to do with Kay... very cryptic indeed

DeepO

	13-12-2004 05:01									#84
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Lets be careful about GoW though. We lose if GoW/ND join up against us.

So let's do the deal with GoW involved? We put up Computers, perhaps a couple more cities on Lego, and Vox's continued survival, and GS and GoW both get Vox's free tech.

If we start manipulating Vox behind GoW's back I am sure MZ will find out about it from Beta. At this point we need GoW as our ally against ND, be it a tech or military alliance.

	13-12-2004 05:16									#85
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Good point, Aeson. We risk alienating GoW by going for Vox's tech on our own, and GoW are almost certainly closer to Vox than us. Perhaps a blandish overture to Vox for starters - something like ...

"In these turbulent times we'd like reassure you that our war is with Lego and not with their ally, and would like to both continue and extend our friendship with you. However paradoxical it may seem, Vox could make gains from the current conflict, should circumstances permit."

	13-12-2004 05:21									#86
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A GL in the coming turns could really extend our options regarding a UN. If Vox got Fission and we traded for it there's no need for prebuilds. Do we have to include GL manifestations in the battle report? Seems to me it'd be something worth hiding if possible - and the creating unit.

	13-12-2004 05:32									#87
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I didn't say to keep GoW out of this, but you're right, they might need to be more involved.

We could make it a double deal: ask Vox that, in case they get another tech than computers, either we can sell it on to GoW, or GoW gets it for free for territory. After all, this is one thing neither GoW nor us are most interested in, while Vox will certainly like it.

We could also ask to make it a 3-way deal, in which GoW puts up Fission, we computers and radio, and Vox their free tech, and nobody trades the free tech around in case it is different from computers or fission. But that quickly turns very complicated... I would prefer us to be the mediator, if we can pull that off.

Tricky situation. However, if we don't act quickly on this, we might not get a chance. So think fast, guys

DeepO

	13-12-2004 05:33									#88
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battle report: yes, promotions are in, so I guess GL generations as well.

CH, don't forget one thing: we're in mob. We can't build the UN right now, we have to end this war first.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 05:37									#89
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Well, we have to end a war. I'd assume starting a war with someone and making peace to just get out of mobilization isn't allowable though.

	13-12-2004 05:38									#90
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not really nice, is it. If that was acceptable, RP could have gotten their GA a long while ago.

DeepO