10-12-2004 13:19									#1
	Don't know if these things have been said before but... Inflate your Upload Space

I just have two points (to begin with).

First of all, transport. In the current incarnations of civilization... it is conceivable that a stone age warrior can walk around the globe willy nilly. First of all... this flies in the face of the fact that the warrior could not possibly keep in viable communication with his host nation, nor relay back map information. The warrior, after succeeding generations, would most likely be divorced from his civilization of origin and simply evolve a new culture. Let's face it, leaders back then didn't have such a stranglehold over their citizens that they could control them even from the other side of the world!
The ability to travel long distances and to explore large areas should be contingent upon the level of transportation and communications technology in a society.

Secondly, civilizations should be more resource dependent. In Civilization 3, you could not build soldiers requiring iron without possessing iron... but HOW THE HELL CAN YOU EVEN RESEARCH IRON WORKING IF THERE IS NO IRON???

	10-12-2004 17:04									#2
	Re: Don't know if these things have been said before but... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Secondly, civilizations should be more resource dependent. In Civilization 3, you could not build soldiers requiring iron without possessing iron... but HOW THE HELL CAN YOU EVEN RESEARCH IRON WORKING IF THERE IS NO IRON???

lol

Agreed
But I would say that it is not only "ressource dependant" but ENVIRONMENT dependant. This of course the environement formed by your precedently discovered techs.




I also agree with your first idea. Units going for exploration should have some limits based on what they actually can really explore AND bring back info about their exploration. This is true, espescially when civ units include thousands of men (!!). Wouldn't just an explorator unit with a little well-organized group have quite some advantages, just as the Canado-American expeditions?

	10-12-2004 19:03									#3
	Re: Don't know if these things have been said before but... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Secondly, civilizations should be more resource dependent. In Civilization 3, you could not build soldiers requiring iron without possessing iron... but HOW THE HELL CAN YOU EVEN RESEARCH IRON WORKING IF THERE IS NO IRON???

I somewhere read that during the Stone Age you could find pieces of pure copper and iron lying on the ground. So you don't need big mines with many resources in the Earth to research Iron Working.

(Doesn't sound that believable, though. I wouldn't bet that's the way the Civmakers thought, too.)

	10-12-2004 19:46									#4
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Well, you can trade minor iron objects through just normal cultural diffusion. So you could have examples of iron items to look at without having a buttload of actual iron in your backyard.

	11-12-2004 04:32									#5
	Remove this text

Still, if you have more of something in your environment, it'll have an influence. Would I be wrong to say that the Greeks from the South developed different weaponry because of the type of metal around them? It's a long time since I heard about it.

	11-12-2004 07:15									#6
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Iron was known for a long time before it could be worked ... it often turns up in signifigant quantities anywhere nickel is found, which was a material used by the ancients for decorative purposes, long before copper tools were invented. However, iron requires extremely hot temperatures to forge, and so, although Copper and Bronze Age civilizations knew of this material it was regarded as a useless waste byproduct, tossed out in mine trailings.
Iron was a well-known and common material to these people however, it is not as if they suddenly discovered iron and then put it to use, the problem was that they did not have the technology to make much use of it.

	11-12-2004 17:12									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree that the units (in ancient times) shouldn't just be able to walk unlimited tiles away from the civilization it comes from and still make it possible to update the map, even though the unit is half-way around the globe and several thousand years has passed by...
The easiest way to fix this is to have a max number of tiles it can be away from the borders, before this unit risks to change into babarians! The more turns it has been outside the borders and the father away, the higher the risk.
Though later in the game, when you get more tech, they can be father away from the borders without any problems, and stay there for a longer time...

	12-12-2004 17:26									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I thought the iron resource always represented viable amounts for large scale operations. Iron could still turn up but before found and connected up to iron you couldn't use it to build units. Which lead up the next point.... how can one iron mine continue to operation for thousands of years???

	12-12-2004 18:12									#9
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I reckon Civ 4 should incorporate a sophisticated economics engine... so much of history has been concerned with the scarcity/abundance of resources and the distribution thereof... I've always thought the trade/resource/economic aspects of the game were underdone.

	12-12-2004 18:17									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Adagio I agree that the units (in ancient times) shouldn't just be able to walk unlimited tiles away from the civilization it comes from and still make it possible to update the map, even though the unit is half-way around the globe and several thousand years has passed by... The easiest way to fix this is to have a max number of tiles it can be away from the borders, before this unit risks to change into babarians! The more turns it has been outside the borders and the father away, the higher the risk. Though later in the game, when you get more tech, they can be father away from the borders without any problems, and stay there for a longer time...

This actually a very good idea!

	12-12-2004 19:37									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

could make mutiny a variable for any unit... if the national economy or empire or military engagement is overstretched, the soldiers don't get their pay/rations (I guess this is applicable mainly to modern armies), they might mutiny... or surrender (now there's an interesting concept...)

	13-12-2004 02:02									#12
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And perhaps Scout units should be much more immune to this. Or maybe you pay directly for scouting endeavors?

	13-12-2004 03:09									#13
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Yep. I see it as each unit type has a different "resistance" for turning into babarians. Maybe like having defense type units be more likely to "turn over" than offensive units, and scouts (as you said) is immune to it.

	15-12-2004 18:38									#14
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just another thought. Sieges were a very important part of war for a very long time and often determined the fate of a war... maybe this could be incorporated?

	15-12-2004 21:58									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Adagio I agree that the units (in ancient times) shouldn't just be able to walk unlimited tiles away from the civilization it comes from and still make it possible to update the map, even though the unit is half-way around the globe and several thousand years has passed by... The easiest way to fix this is to have a max number of tiles it can be away from the borders, before this unit risks to change into babarians! The more turns it has been outside the borders and the father away, the higher the risk. Though later in the game, when you get more tech, they can be father away from the borders without any problems, and stay there for a longer time...

An implementation along the lines of that idea would work wonders I think. I HATE how quick the world gets discovered in Civ3, especially once map trading is possible. I've changed somethings around to help slow it down significantly in my games, but it still doesn't seem natural. I think this would do a good job.

To add further to the idea, experience of the unit and the age of the unit should by factors in their exploring abilities. At least in the early ages scouts and explorers would be [more] useful.

	16-12-2004 07:57									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

these are all good ideas. I hope Sid Meier is reading this...

One more thing, civs generally seem to advance at (relatively) the same rate as each other... by the middle ages there usually aren't any civs that are isolated from the rest of the world... which sucks 'cause it'd be really nice to see imperialism develop similar to how it did in reality.