28-12-2004 09:38									#31
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Democracy does not require a higher Lux slider setting than Republic during peacetime (in fact, it can require less because of the lower Corruption). Only in wartime is there a difference due to Democracy's heavier WW.

	28-12-2004 09:59									#32
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Monarchy has no WW and 3 MPs so typically you wouldn't use the lux slider much at all. The effect of the slider tends to be reduced anyway compared to rep/dem due to the higher corruption and reduced commerce.

Unless religious, I try not to be in Monarchy at all. You generate so little science and gold compared to rep/dem that it's a really handicap over an extended period.

	28-12-2004 10:06									#33
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ok..so Demo is a preferred even during war

Thanks for the clarifications folks

	28-12-2004 10:08									#34
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It is very dependant, even if in monarchy. If you are playing where you only have one content citizen born and want to have a size 12 city, you are likely to need the slider.

This is not allows the case. If I manage to get a wonder that gives happy pop for that city, I may be able to skate, but soon other cities will need help.

	28-12-2004 10:13									#35
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Thanks

	28-12-2004 10:52									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll ok..so Demo is a preferred even during war

No, not usually. You need to be very careful waging war under a Democracy, because of the chance of a revolt into anarchy if War Weariness gets too bad. And if you're not Religious, you definitely don't want that to happen. If you want a protracted war under Democracy, you need to manage your WW factors, such as ending the turn with units inside enemy territory, etc. Under Democracy, short sharp wars or oscillating wars usually work best.

However, with sufficient luxuries and a moderate slider usage, you can usually effectively wage war under a Republic indefinitely.

	28-12-2004 18:55									#37
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ok

Man I am learning a lot.with much to learn yet

	28-12-2004 20:26									#38
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I just had a nasty war with a republic- essentially, gathered a huge army to wipe out my bigger, richer, more technologically advanced but militarily weaker democratic neighbor. Well, the size of my army meant I had to have plenty of taxes- the problem was, i had only 2 luxuries, and no real trading partners- so the longer my genocidal campaign went, the more and more I had to pump up the luxury slider while the lower and lower i had to go techwise.

I won the war (it was sadly only a matter of time), But I have fallen deeply behind the tech leaders since i was essentially doind no reasearch for long periods of time (I was also in war time footing, so until I made peace I could not build up markets, banks, temples, and other solutions.

	28-12-2004 20:48									#39
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Being a Republic with only two luxes is often not a good idea and one of the few scenarios where I might advise a government switch, especially if you're planning to go to war with a technologically superior foe. With so many units you're going to take a lot of WW automatically just entering their territory, coupled with the fact you're likely to take great losses with infeior units. Be sure to bring plenty of artillery.

	28-12-2004 21:41									#40
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I had not counted on that WW issue of lots of units in his land! Dumb me.

My losses were miniscule compared to his- as I said, his army was greatly understrenght- most cities had only one good defender and then pikemen or spearmen as defenders- I was attacking with an army of about 40 cavaly on a wide front- he was never able to recover from the innitial strike- at most he would mount limited counterattacks with the few cav he had- maybe he would kill 3 cav. of mine through counterattack- next turn, i had 4 new ones going to the front.

	29-12-2004 00:54									#41
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I was under the impression that the number of units in enemy territory didn't matter, just the fact that you had at least one inside enemy borders. IOW, the WWP are based on number of turns that is the case, not number of units.

	29-12-2004 06:06									#42
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hmm..yet more data to process

Keep opinion's coming please

	29-12-2004 06:09									#43
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it always seemed to me it was the number of turns. But in another thread on this page, there is an in depth analysis of war weariness.

I have never really had war weariness problems in republic. I can usually achieve my goals fast enough.

democracy usually doesn't give me too much trouble. They usually refuse to talk to you for about 10 turns. But eventually they will talk to you and you can arrange peace.

	29-12-2004 06:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident democracy usually doesn't give me too much trouble. They usually refuse to talk to you for about 10 turns. But eventually they will talk to you and you can arrange peace.

so does it matter if you try to talk to others..like attempting "Global Peace efforts" or does the game no take into account "rumors"

You know..there is the screen that says so and so is not to be trusted..ect.

	29-12-2004 07:23									#45
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If you are talking about diplomatic actions with other nations, I doubt that is taken into account. Unless you agree to an embargo against a nation. The nation in question isn't likely to like that.

As for that screen about not being trusted, that reflects your reputation. If you start more wars, the worse that will get.

My reference to being able to talk to the nation refers to when they declare war on you (or you declare war on them). For a while they will refuse any attempts of communication. But eventually they will. It seems to me they are quicker to reciever your diplomatic envoys if you conquer a few of their cities.

	30-12-2004 07:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident If you are talking about diplomatic actions with other nations, I doubt that is taken into account. Unless you agree to an embargo against a nation. The nation in question isn't likely to like that. As for that screen about not being trusted, that reflects your reputation. If you start more wars, the worse that will get. My reference to being able to talk to the nation refers to when they declare war on you (or you declare war on them). For a while they will refuse any attempts of communication. But eventually they will. It seems to me they are quicker to reciever your diplomatic envoys if you conquer a few of their cities.

ok thanks for the clarifications my friend

	30-12-2004 14:04									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident As for that screen about not being trusted, that reflects your reputation. If you start more wars, the worse that will get.

Wrong. If you just start a war, the guy you attacked wil hate you, and that's it. Your reputation will not suffer permanently.

The comment about being trusted is based on deals one broke, and atrocities one committed (like razing cities), not on wars declared. People often mistake it, because declaring war breaks any treaties with that nation, if you don't let them run out first. You can check what deals are running on the F4 screen, "Details" view.

	30-12-2004 21:21									#48
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even if you just declare a war out of the blue?

Often I'm just move a unit in and attack with no warning. The pop asks, yes- they are scum. And I click it.

What about when you have a treaty of friendship with them or right of passage?

	30-12-2004 21:36									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident even if you just declare a war out of the blue?

Yes, as long as you don't break running treaties by doing so.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Often I'm just move a unit in and attack with no warning. The pop asks, yes- they are scum. And I click it.

There is a slight hit if you declare war with your units inside enemy territory. Otherwise, there's not much to worry about. The guy you just attacked will obviously hate you even after the war, but it wears off, and you can be friends later. Others won't mind a war, as long as you don't attack them.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident What about when you have a treaty of friendship with them or right of passage?

If you have a peace treaty signed (i.e. after a previous war), a MPP, or a ROP, then you'd be breaking it by declaring war. They are signed for 20 turns. Breaking a MPP or a ROP will destroy your reputation for the rest of the game. Breaking a Peace Treaty will heavily damage it.

Check the F4 screen - it lists treaties running. If a deal has a number near it, this is how long it will last. After that period, you can break the treaty without a penalty.

	31-12-2004 07:59									#50
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shame ya get hit hard for the whole entire game..be nice if you could say make a peace offering and all would be well again

	31-12-2004 10:25									#51
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actually my last couple of games I've been running communism. And I put my slider to 0%.

I'm finding the AI likes to declare war on me too much when I run democracy. Even though I prefer that goverment. I get pissed at the AI when they are *******s, then I switch goverments and open a can of whoop ass on them.

	31-12-2004 14:07									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm finding the AI likes to declare war on me too much when I run democracy.

Yes, this is something I noticed too. Some of them just go crazy when this happens. Democracy doesn't allow prolonged wars, because of the automatic revolution (no matter the lux slider ). That's why I stay in Republic, unless playing a Religious civ.

	31-12-2004 19:38									#53
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well..another vote fer Republic..I have heard too much for Fascism..

	31-12-2004 21:05									#54
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the real question is fascism or communism. I still really haven't tried out fascism yet.

	01-01-2005 02:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the real question is fascism or communism. I still really haven't tried out fascism yet.

I heard lots of thumbs up fer communism not much fer Fascism or feudalism..

	01-01-2005 03:03									#56
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Grandpa Troll - while this is not a comprehensive look at different governments. This method only looks at income which is only a piece of the whole picture. You need to factor in corruption. For instance under Democracy you have higher income which is terrific for science research and luxury distribution but your outlying cities will have high corruption which will make them unlikely to be a significant production center for your nation. And there's high war wearniess to think about. OTOH, under Communism there's lower income but the corruption is spread out evenly making your outlying cities nearly as important as your core cities and there's low war weariness.

So in an epic game, as German, I had a sprawling empire. I decided to see how certain governments impact on the income and scientific research. So I saved the turn right before the period of anarchy was supposed to end so I could reload and select different government.

Here's republic...

Attachment: germrep1.jpg
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	01-01-2005 03:05									#57
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Fascism

Attachment: germfasc.jpg
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	01-01-2005 03:06									#58
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Communism

Attachment: germcomm.jpg
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	01-01-2005 03:07									#59
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Democracy

Attachment: germdem.jpg
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	01-01-2005 03:10									#60
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So you can see that Democracy is better for research - it'd take Democracy 5 turns to research a tech and Communists 6 turns while for Republicans, it's 8 turns and Fascists 11 turns.

But that courthouse in Adrianople which is a recently conquered (as you can see due to population graphics) would have taken all governments 73 turns while for Communists it's 19 turns.

If you want me to do other governments (monarchy, feudalism, etc) I'll be happy to do so.

Note differences in happiness among those governments also.