11-12-2004 00:41									#1
	Presidency up for grabs Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Okay, I've mentioned it a couple of times before, so this won't be a shock to anyone. I'm looking for replacement as player of our team. I'm not going to disappear, and from time to time I'll probably load up a save and give some comments (in case you still want them, of course), but I can't keep on doing this. It's nearly a year now, and it wears you out.

Also, I can't spend the time needed in order to do a proper job... this year, it was very easy for me to read and comment during the day, this is about to change drastically. I have enjoyed it very much to spend some of my 'work' time on this game, but I cannot do that anymore. It's just too addicting for me, before you know it, you're calculating scenarios in your head, instead of concentrating on work.

I'm not going to run off just yet, I certainly would like to end this war (after all, I started it), and do it properly too. But seeing what happened this past turn, it looks like the war is basically over... we got more then we wanted, and are now discussing how best to consolidate our wins.

This basically started as me, being a intermediate replacement for CH, as he was getting tired from many months of hard work. What should have been a month turned into a year. Well, CH, if you want, I don't think anyone will mind if you take your old job back, we would be in good hands

Other then him, all applicants are welcomed in this thread. Anyone who thinks he can spend the time on this game (as it is certainly more a question of time, not of skill), please let your voice be heared. I'm not putting a fixed term on this (so not something like: I'll be off in 2 weeks), but there is a very fixed deadline... the moment I get a new job, will be the last turn I played. Please, let us find someone else, before we've got to appoint Chinese volunteers.

Cheers,
DeepO

	11-12-2004 05:38									#2
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Apologies, DeepO, for not posting to this thread yet. I'll be saying my piece here soon.

	11-12-2004 06:42									#3
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As some people know, I have been the regular turn player at Cake or Death? in the DG2 from shortly after the time I started playing the turn for GS (all those centuries ago). It's nowhere near as intense as this game but we've been in what is now a 220 unit war for nearly fifty turns and the end is not exactly around the corner. (Free Intel for Vulture and OPD here)

Yes, I know all CoD's units are one tile so movement is not that complicated but it's still a workload. I've got the turn open now and have been doing diplo for that game whilst in these discussions here.

My point is that if one turn-player job is hard to carry, and frankly not many people can do it, two can be a bit of a handfull to put it midly.

Also, apart from celebrating the GS triumph - whatever happens next in the game - I have also been celebrating my band's decision to record our album next month in time for a spring promotional campaign. As I will be personally investing enough money in this project to rush-buy 8 Artillery, 9 Transports and a damaged Destroyer, and as no-one wishes to record an album unrehearsed, it's clear where my priorities must lay.

To help pay for this, I've taken on an additional workload to my regular day-job, which I'm not-exactly ahead of schedule on.

The upshot of all this is that whilst I don't want to make cheap excuses, these are not cheap excuses, and there are limits on my effectiveness as a successor.

If no-one else will, I'll have to. But whatever our F11 or F3 stats are saying, we will not be the power we have been, and our ability to wage war effectively under my turnplay could be rather low, even if attacked.

Having said all this. ND could decide to spare us the problem and eliminate us as soon as they see the Great Green Doughnut.




PS - and while I'm at it, apologies to OPD for never being active on the MZO game.

	11-12-2004 07:04									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

CH, there is no need for apologies for not taking up the job, and I would hate it to put you down as a Chinese volunteer, even if you are volunteering that. Real life comes first, or at least it should do, and I don't see any possibility to take 2 player jobs, even if my real life commitments are at an all time low right now. So don't feel sorry, make sure you get that CD recorded, and let us know where we can listen / buy it!

You've been active here for a long while now, and if I could remain that active I would be pleased. It's just that we not only need active people, we also need someone to play the game, to make the decisions once there are conflicting opinions, to be there when a turn arrives. Don't feel sorry you can't find the time to do this. I just hope someone comes around, as it can't be me anymore.

DeepO

	16-12-2004 08:35									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DeepO nye if you're volunteering as a turnplayer too, please say so!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I would prefer not. I have some other things that I regard as very important that take up most of my free time, and I am totally unable to be around here during work hours. However, if no one else is comfortable doing it, I will spell you when you need to stop. I would want to do it a bit differently. I would want three 'ministers' (heads of the colleges was what was originally intended). One to hold discussions re economics and distill the wisdom. Another to conduct diplomacy, hold discussions and make recommendations. Finally, one to look at military issues, hold discussions and give 'orders'. In other words, spread the work around. In the absense of someone holding a ministry, I would do the best I can to fill the gap, but I do not have the time to devote in the same order that you have. You've been magnificent, and I severely doubt that any one person could replace you. I doubt it would be good for us if any one person tried, unless maybe Aeson has not much else to do for the next 6 months.

Well, I still want to be involved. I fully understand Nathan, in that after being a turn player he disappeared here completely (lurking, perhaps). I do not intend to do the same. So in case we get to such a 3-ministry system, I would still gie my comments on the economic side of thins for sure. If this means long-term visions (e.g. we want this wonder, give the player a plan which he can follow for at least 10 turns without extra input), it shouldn't be a problem of time. I hope. But I can't do this daily anymore.

However, there is a problem with this method, I think. We tried it before, and it didn't work really well. I'm not sure why exactly the school idea failed, perhaps because everyone wanted to do a bit of everything, or not everyone was at his right place. We never had a diplo-nazi like Togas has been in the ISDG. We never had a MM-wizard like E_T either. Not that Nathan or my MMing was worse (on the contrary, from what I can see), it's just that that always has been a responsibility of the turn player. I do not volunteer for such a job either. I want to plan certain cities without any problem, but not all of them, for the next 50 turns. It simply doesn't work like that, too many changes to react to.

As to Aeson being a turn player... Obviously he would be ideal. I don't want to speak in your name, Aeson, but I always had the impression that you liked it more how you do it now. Just comment on the big picture, and in case of crisis zoom in on the little things. Which is a lot different from doing the little things all the time...

Part of the reason why I moved this discussion back here, is because this isn't progressing. Like I said in the first post, I do not want to put a deadline on this, saying that I only play for 2 more weeks, or 2 more turns, or something similar. However, the longer this debate is avoided, the more urgent this becomes. Please let's not get into the same situation as when Nathan left.

Oh, and don't be afraid to post here either. It's obvious nobody is really looking forward to becoming a turn player. It does take a lot of time this late in the game. But we need debate, we need to get some kind of solution rather soon.

So, nye, I'm fully interested in hearing more on how you would see this school-approach. I might want to take up one of your minister posts (the economical one)... but only one.

Oh, BTW, I'm also looking for replacement as ambassador for RP and ND (and Lego )

DeepO

	16-12-2004 09:16									#6
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Well, econ minister would be the biggest job. Think the big thoughts. Do the hard math. Just tell the player (me) what to do. Nathan could have done that last time I resumed playing turns. Only I lost his recommendations for a given turn in the blizzard of posts in a turn thread. He voiced some displeasure and never made another round of recommendations. I can't blame him. You spend a lot of time thinking what to do, and then it seems to be ignored. I'm sure I would find other things to do as well.

So, we would need the ministers to modify the orders post(s) of the turn thread (first one or three or so posts). Then it is easy for the player to swoop by, pick up the orders, and get things done. That would give us some needed structure (IMO).

We have been successful with 'dictators'. Players who fully took up the reigns and spent hundreds of hours per month on the game, many of those in discussions on the forum. That's how it started with SR and I sharing the turn player 'burden'. Except early on there is not a lot of burden. Almost no drudgery. As things progress the amount of actual work expands in what seems an exponential manner. Unfortunately, it is not reasonable to expect that anyone would be willing or able to make a commitment to do what you have done. If it isn't super human, it is certainly not something that any human with a job and or a family could do. We need a system where any person with commitment could do the job. Therefore, we have to spread the work around. That means finding 2 or 3 people to take up critical posts and stay at them even when it seems like not much is needed. Than a turn player could manage the task in addition to the other responsibilities in life he or she might have.

	16-12-2004 11:33									#7
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I could play the saves if nobody wants the job, but would do so in a much more terse manner than we've been doing throughout the game. Basically generalized orders would need to be in before I open the save and I'd try to accomplish whatever goals we've decided on as best I can. I can't leave the game on too long, so the turns would need to be played out within an hour or two of opening the save.

I wouldn't want any part of the diplomatic side of things in any case.

	16-12-2004 11:57									#8
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Aeson just said in forty words what I have tried to in 400. In short, the team has to be a bit more organised with a couple of people stepping up to fill roles and not leaving it all on the shoulders of one.

btw, we could do significantly worse than having the Orange army take over. Aeson has my vote, if he wants it.

	16-12-2004 16:07									#9
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Aeson, if you want to play the turns, I think you've got everybody's vote. We all appreciate your skill in this game. And we'll adapt our way of doing things if necessary, of course.

nye: that's why I asked what you meant with econ minister. I'm certainly willing to canalize discussions, and do some math what e.g. wonders, or precise planning of SS parts is concerned. But for all the different builds in all different cities, I don't want to be bothered anymore. Some broad ideas like "build unis in all cities which don't have any, MIs in those that have unis for the next 5 turns" will have to do. How exactly these are built, and the tweaking to get the last useable shield and commerce is too much work to try to do beforehand, I am nog going to create 25 excell sheets to compute every single combination.

For me, I really have to get some sort of 'position' where I can afford to stay out of the forum for 2-3 days, without any problems to the team. Not that I think I will only drop in every 3 days, but it must be possible. If that means I can't fill your idea of an econ minister, as he should more or less be present every day and be on top of things, I've got to decline. I want to advice, and will keep on discussing things, I do not want daily 'responsibility' anymore.

As to dictatorship of the turnplayer: I know what you mean. I've tried to keep this a team thing, and certainly at first I tried to let everyone take a job, while I did mine. However, I don't believe anymore that that's possible. You need a bit of a dictator in the pilot seat, to make sure all necessary things are actually getting done, and to create one picture out of all the loose parts flying around. You can't have 3 different visions in the team, and the natural conclusion is that the turnplayer makes the final decisions. He can listen to everyone, but must be a dictator I fear.

DeepO

	17-12-2004 05:21									#10
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NYE, copied from the turn thread

quote: I would want three 'ministers' (heads of the colleges was what was originally intended). One to hold discussions re economics and distill the wisdom. Another to conduct diplomacy, hold discussions and make recommendations. Finally, one to look at military issues, hold discussions and give 'orders'.

The principle of dividing up the workload is a good one, but our past experience has seen it rare for people to, uhm, persist in their duties. Even with the strongest of will and loyalty, this is not always easy, as RL and DG activity get in each others way. Put bluntly, the sacrifice required for any full-time post is more than most people are prepared/able to sustain.

I can probably extend my diplomatic role beyond GoW - a job I've held basically since I joined the team - as part of a team re-structure, and subject to the time constraints I mentioned above, but one thing I will stress

* Cort Haus strikes Lenin pose

"All Power to the Turnplayer"

* Cort Haus gets of lecturn

The turnplayer takes a burden of time and responsibility that is generous enough to his team. While they will welcome participation and contributions, to debate every POV with every team-mate can push the burden too far, necessitating what Lenin called 'Democratic Centrism' - basically "listen but do not be bound".

IOW - an Orange Dictatorship is fine by me

	17-12-2004 08:09									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Aeson, if you want to play the turns, I think you've got everybody's vote. We all appreciate your skill in this game. And we'll adapt our way of doing things if necessary, of course. nye: that's why I asked what you meant with econ minister. I'm certainly willing to canalize discussions, and do some math what e.g. wonders, or precise planning of SS parts is concerned. But for all the different builds in all different cities, I don't want to be bothered anymore. Some broad ideas like "build unis in all cities which don't have any, MIs in those that have unis for the next 5 turns" will have to do. How exactly these are built, and the tweaking to get the last useable shield and commerce is too much work to try to do beforehand, I am nog going to create 25 excell sheets to compute every single combination. For me, I really have to get some sort of 'position' where I can afford to stay out of the forum for 2-3 days, without any problems to the team. Not that I think I will only drop in every 3 days, but it must be possible. If that means I can't fill your idea of an econ minister, as he should more or less be present every day and be on top of things, I've got to decline. I want to advice, and will keep on discussing things, I do not want daily 'responsibility' anymore. As to dictatorship of the turnplayer: I know what you mean. I've tried to keep this a team thing, and certainly at first I tried to let everyone take a job, while I did mine. However, I don't believe anymore that that's possible. You need a bit of a dictator in the pilot seat, to make sure all necessary things are actually getting done, and to create one picture out of all the loose parts flying around. You can't have 3 different visions in the team, and the natural conclusion is that the turnplayer makes the final decisions. He can listen to everyone, but must be a dictator I fear. DeepO

Well, since I'm going to step aside and encourage Aeson to take to role, the point may be moot, but...

Anything that can be done to assist the turn player should be encouraged. A qualified person putting some attention on an area of responsibility is preferrable to no one doing it. The turn player would fill in any gaps left. That's my feeling on the matter and how I would view it were I the turn player.

However, we will have to wait for Aeson to say what he feels would be good for assistance from the team assuming he takes up the role, which I hope he does.

	17-12-2004 08:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus * Cort Haus strikes Lenin pose "All Power to the Turnplayer" * Cort Haus gets of lecturn The turnplayer takes a burden of time and responsibility that is generous enough to his team. While they will welcome participation and contributions, to debate every POV with every team-mate can push the burden too far, necessitating what Lenin called 'Democratic Centrism' - basically "listen but do not be bound". IOW - an Orange Dictatorship is fine by me

I agree fully.

The biggest problem with Bob was that we didn't have a clearly defined chain of command. Shiber played some turns for a time and I played some. He and I did not coordinate well enough in some places, and there was a lot of unproductive chitter in some chats, like when Aggie was in the process of driving the Riders right under our noses to get at the undefended belly of Spain. When I played most of the turns, I half-assed it. I did not take charge that way I should have, and on top of that I screwed up some of the critical directions given by a 'minister'. It should be a text book example of how one of these teams should not be run, and I am very thankful that it did not immediately cost us the game.

	17-12-2004 16:31									#13
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nye, don't take the blame for Bob. I agree fully that we were at our worsts, but everybody was involved. I know I proposed some half plan to build loads of WCs and horses, move them up North, and invade GoW on their home ground side, but this plan never really materialized. One of the players (not you, but I don't know who) played one turn, and saw all these WCs spread out over Stormia, enough cash, and an urgent need for knights in RP's territory. Instant decision was to upgrade, and use these troops, and nothing said he couldn't. There was no big plan, there were only a few, drowned posts on some idea, they weren't even bundled in a thread. The result was that we lost RP's territory (but that was almost a given in the beginning situation), but that we also couldn't bother GoW up North. It was the main lesson I took a couple of months later: If you want to plan a big operation, invest enough time beforehand, so everyone agrees with the general plan. And don't switch turn players every couple of turns, or your units start to run in all directions without ever arriving somewhere.

These kind of transitions are perfectly normal, BTW. I remember asking CH to add workers to cities when he was nearing the end of his play. He added the last workers in his last turn... and in the first turn I played, I started to build workers in those exact same cities as RRs needed to be built soon. Not the most efficient thing, but simply a change in vision... and in the end it had virtually no influence on our combined play. But if CH and I would have alternated every 5 turns, I doubt we would have gotten the force to invade Lego, even if we both have very similar ideas on what needs to be done.

All these little stories to tell one thing: a turn player should not only take the decision necessary, but also be a bit consistent over time. We lost the Bobian war not because one or the other turn player, but because we had so many, each with his own agenda. And all of these agenda's were perfectly valid strategies, but the combination was chaos.

DeepO

	17-12-2004 16:34									#14
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Oh, and in case Aeson takes over, I doubt I will be needed for the MMing anyway... in which case some general, global ideas on how to produce what where might work perfectly. It's a bit of a pity I don't really see a role for me diplomatically anymore, or I could help CH... but diplo really requires you to be present every day.

Who knows, I might still be helpful in writing reports to other teams from time to time. Writing documentation is not something I loath, and I know others don't really appreciate it.

DeepO

	29-12-2004 05:57									#15
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Aeson, a question. I think we are getting to the point where it would be good to switch turn player roles. You've been following the past few turns in great detail, and are into things. If it wasn't for the WLTKD's we'd get back next turn, I would say this is a perfect turn to swtich.

What do you think? Otherwise, I continue for 1 more turn after next, or possibly until we get out of mob (but that would be stretching it). If you want next turn already, that's also fine by me.

I know you do not intend to have these long turn thread disccusions we had the past 3 or 4 turns, and in any case they won't be needed either. We can go back to give some general orders, and let the turnplayer decide what's best without detailed analysis of every move. No more 300-post turn threads (pity; I'll never get to deity ). But could you give a precise idea on what you do expect from us?

Also, I think it's best if the first few turns you take over, I keep an eye on the MMing stuff. I know most of these cities by heart. OTOH, a change of vision will probably do us good.

One thing I'd like to start a discussion on the following few days is our defense situation. That's another reason I propose to do one more turn: there will be a lot of pillaging and rebuilding needed, which is a pain to do. I don't want to put that burden on you in your first turn of play. At least there is little chaining to be done anymore

So, when precisley would you want to take over? For me, the sooner the better. I've done what I wanted to do in this game, I think I left my mark.

DeepO

	29-12-2004 06:19									#16
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I can take over next turn.

The only thing I feel iffy about is the mobilization bug. The pillaging/rebuilding was something I have been looking at.

As for input, I'll try to consider every issue that is raised before the save arrives. Unless there is a major developement I'm just going to open the save and play once it gets here.

	29-12-2004 06:22									#17
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Thanks Aeson.

	29-12-2004 06:55									#18
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That would be marvelous, Aeson!

the mob bug: I've become very pragmatic in this. I try to check it, but most of the times on when it harms us, not when it advantages us. E.g. the settler builds in Cyclone: they have been helped by the bug, when they shouldn't. I'm certain that over the duration of moblization, this has given us half, or even a full settler too much. I don't care.

Whenever the shields are recalculated, the bug gets reset to the correct situation. So any adding of workers, or change of improvements within the city radius resets it.

And I'm not sure when it happens, but I think that it has to do with the automatic choice of the build governor: Cyclone gets the bonus, because every time a tank is suggested (and I change it to a worker or a settler, both of which don't get the bonus). If an airport is suggested but you want a unit, you need to adjust your terrain to correct the bug.

DeepO

	29-12-2004 07:06									#19
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Oh, one more piece of advice: be careful with the graphics of the shields on tiles in the city view, as these get updated correctly when you change builds. I found the easiest way of checking whether the city got the bonus or not, was to remove all the citizens of the tiles. You then see either a negative spt (which means you need to adjust terrain to correct, or we would be cheated out of the bonus), or a surplus (so that the city tile generates virtually 10 spt or more). In case of surplus, the bug doesn't bite, but helps when it shouldn't

DeepO

	29-12-2004 07:10									#20
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Oh, something else: there are a couple of cities that are about to grow, when they shouldn't. Tempest for one, EotS another. For Tempest, there still are a couple of turs before it becomes a problem (2 to be exact)...

DeepO

	29-12-2004 10:41									#21
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I just found out I'm going to be out of town from Dec 30th till Jan 2. So if the save should come in that time I won't be able to play until late 2nd at the earliest.

	29-12-2004 10:53									#22
	Remove this text

That should not be a problem with the new year.

	29-12-2004 15:38									#23
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Aeson,

I will gladly act as a replacement... but don't worry about the new year, nobody is going to play in that period.

Enjoy the trip

DeepO

	29-12-2004 18:31									#24
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Thanks Aeson Enjoy your trip


DeepO, you have been amazing to watch... a complete masterclass