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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:17
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John T - quote:
However, there is also the contention, also supported by the evidence, that the emphasis on the number 7 actually has no special meaning whatsoever other than being the largest prime number under ten (fingers). |
There is no evidence for that, there is plenty of evidence various cultures represented Earth by the number 7 either directly or indirectly. Do you know of any culture that created an astronomically based religion even mentioning prime numbers? That's the kind of evidence you need for that theory, not pointing out that almost half the numbers up to 20 are prime. Then you'd have to explain why non-prime numbers are so prevalent in the same astronomical symbolism. Hey, maybe they thought non-prime numbers were sacred too 
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But there aren't 12 bodies in our solar system... |
There are 12 that play roles in the Enuma Elish.
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and Saturn's moons are as large, or larger, than some of the planets. Since the ancients are smart enough to adduce the existence of the "invisible" planets, why weren't they smart enough to adduce the existence of the "invisible" moons of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune... and why didn't they realize that Pluto is more of a double-planet than a single entity? |
All those smaller bodies were either irrelevant to or a
consequence of creation. Again, the Enuma Elish is a creation story, not a description of every chunk of rock floating around in space.
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Ooh, there's that number 7 again! |
There isn't much point to this if you insist on equating randomness to the ancients association of the number 7 to Earth.
As for your link and what you quoted, what's your point? That Pluto and Charon constitute 2 planets? So what? The Enuma Elish is a story about creation, not a description of planets as they now exist. Pluto was obviously one body in the past and broke in two during some calamity and both spun off into space from a parent planet. There is alot more evidence that parent was Saturn just as Sitchin adduced from the Enuma Elish.
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4 is the square of the only prime number that is even. 5, of course, is prime. |
The solar system is divided up into 4 inner planets and 5 outer planets separated by an asteroid belt. The Incan prince who drew their genesis story was depicting celestial objects, not prime numbers.
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13 is also prime, as is 2. |
This was how the Toltecs viewed Heaven. They didn't invent heaven based on prime numbers because their "underworld" had 9 layers matching their 9 rulers of the night. There is no evidence prime numbers played a role in Mayan and Toltec religion but plenty of evidence astronomy was integral.
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We don't need to believe in Chariots of the Gods, we just need to believe that the ancients weren't as numerically ignorant as once thought. |
No, we're required to believe that prime numbers were the basis of their religion. Why? One can be aware of prime numbers without caring, much less care that 4 is the square of two. These were astronomer cultures and astronomy was key to their religions. They were concerned with charting celestial objects, not figuring out if they could divide 7 in two. I mean, prime numbers may be of interest to some mathematician, but it doesn't say squat about how the world came to exist.
Busta - quote:
here's a big problem here. You continue to talk about 12 unique bodies: 10 planets + sun + moon. Well, if there's 10 planets, and you're coming from the outside in, wouldn't that make Earth = 8? |
The 10th is the creator, the ellipse the Inca claimed as the creator. The Sumerians depicted Mars as a 6 pointed "star" and Venus as an 8 pointed star. And what about the Earth? The 7 stepped ziggurat. Even the descriptions of the 12 celestial bodies in the Enuma Elish match the planets well.
Provost
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What about all those other satellites of the larger gas giants? Some of them are huge - Titan or Triton are larger than Pluto or Mercury...why are they conveniently ignored? |
Ultimately because they played no role in the creation of heaven and earth. According to Sitchin's theory, our solar system began with the sun, mercury, and Tiamat (the biblical tehom), a celestial body covered with water located at the asteroid belt (actually makes alot of sense). According to the Enuma Elish, between the sun and Tiamat 2 more "gods" came into existence - female and male warrior gods and the forerunner of Ares/Mars and Venus (Venus was both goddess of war and love in Sumerian mythology).
These were followed by the two greatest planets and a pair of large twins. Turmoil ensued and the creator was called forth from the deep to do battle with the sun and Tiamat. Before the celestial collision forming Earth and the asteroid belt is described, the creator asks Saturn to send his emissary to the other planets to inform them of the coming battle. The emissary is Pluto...
If you look at Genesis and simply replace the "days" of creation with planets, or planetary orbits (often called rivers in ancient mythology), we can see that the 6th planet from the outside was struck and pushed to a new orbit to become the 7th planet. And God rested on the 7th day? Virtually every creation myth from all around the world describe the Earth's creation in one of two ways 1) being the death and dismantlement of some monster, or watery dragon in Sumerian myth. 2) the creator calls upon a mystical animal to dive down below the waters to retrieve soil which the creator then uses to form the lands. The Egyptian myth doesn't have the diving anaimal but the rest of the story is essentially the same.
I really suggest buying Sitchin's "The 12th Planet" and comparing it to published translations of the Enuma Elish. Read it based on the assumption what you are reading is a description of celestials events about 4 billion years ago, events leading to the creation of Earth as a surviving remnant of the shattered Tiamat whose remains circle the sun in the form of a hammered bracelet, the Sumerian meaning of Heaven - an apt
description of the asteroid belt.
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:17
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I mean, I could argue that the ancient Sumerians/Incans/Mayans didn't have **** compared to the ancient Isrealites, whose account of creation does a far, far better job of roughly paralleling the scientific account of creation than anything done by others:
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Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. |
The big bang itself, the creation of energy.
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Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. |
The formation of matter.
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Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. God called the dry land earth, and the (R)gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. |
Gravitational clumping, which then led to...
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Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a third day. |
Oops. Well, a little forgiveness can be granted in the spirit of literary license... after all, they're trying to explain nothing less than the creation of the Universe. Anyway, where were we... oh, yeah... gravitational clumping which led to...
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hen God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. |
Stars and planets. Unfortunately, the ancients had God inventing plants before he made the stars that fed them, but again, they didn't know everything. And maybe the first typesetter got these last two passages backwards.
However, the Bible does imply evolution:
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Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens." God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. |
Life began in liquid, is the general consensus (IIRC). It might not have been crystal clear water, but a liquid environment was probably crucial. Again, they get a few details wrong (akin to insisting that there's 12 objects in the solar system, when in fact there are thousands), but we'll give them the benefit of doubt.
Life spread from the sea to the land:
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Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. |
Finally culminating in man, the apex of evolution:
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Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." |
So, if you want scientific accuracy in your belief system, just turn to the Bible. At least they didn't limit themselves to the creation of a mere solar system... no, the explanation of the creation of the Universe was their goal, and, for the most part, they got the general gist right. Plus we don't have to manufacture answers by multiplying this civilizations year by that civilizations number of Gods, and then dividing it by this other civilizations number of Kings. Or whatever.
Last edited by JohnT on 12-12-2004 at 09:55
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Comrade Tassadar
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I believe that infact 6 is the holy number.
Notice, if you spell "six" twice, you get "sixsix", which is - yep - six letters! Infact, the word "letter" has 6 letters in it.
"Russia" has 6 letters, as does "Россия". The word "Alphabet", while having 8 letters, can be reduced to six by spelling it "Alfabt". "Genius people" has 12 letters, as does "bow to number 6" . Take twelve and divide it by 2 (which, if multiplied, results in 6) and you get, yep, 6!
Mathematically speaking, 3*2 equals...yep, six. 6*1, 2*3, 1.5*4, 1.2*5, 0.857142*7, 0.75*8, .66*9, .6*10...So many ways you can get to six! If the Supreme did not intend for us to revere the holy number, then why would he give us so many ways to acknowledge it?
China, one of the first civilisations in the entire world, worshipped six. The Chinese character for six (liu) 六, depicts people (ren) 人 worshipping something on a plate - or altar! Why would the Chinese describe 6 with a pictograph telling worship if they did not worship the holy number as well?
Uh, modern history can arguably be divided up into six nations: Soviet Union, Germany, United States, China, Japan, and the United Kingdom. The Supreme, in his ultimate glory, ensured this as a large clue ot humanity - worship the number 6!
Do you heretics really need any more proof of the divine nature of the number six?  Repent now or face the wrath of the Supreme!
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
I believe that infact 6 is the holy number.
Notice, if you spell "six" twice, you get "sixsix", which is - yep - six letters! Infact, the word "letter" has 6 letters in it.
"Russia" has 6 letters, as does "Россия". The word "Alphabet", while having 8 letters, can be reduced to six by spelling it "Alfabt". "Genius people" has 12 letters, as does "bow to number 6" . Take twelve and divide it by 2 (which, if multiplied, results in 6) and you get, yep, 6!
Mathematically speaking, 3*2 equals...yep, six. 6*1, 2*3, 1.5*4, 1.2*5, 0.857142*7, 0.75*8, .66*9, .6*10...So many ways you can get to six! If the Supreme did not intend for us to revere the holy number, then why would he give us so many ways to acknowledge it?
China, one of the first civilisations in the entire world, worshipped six. The Chinese character for six (liu) 六, depicts people (ren) 人 worshipping something on a plate - or altar! Why would the Chinese describe 6 with a pictograph telling worship if they did not worship the holy number as well?
Uh, modern history can arguably be divided up into six nations: Soviet Union, Germany, United States, China, Japan, and the United Kingdom. The Supreme, in his ultimate glory, ensured this as a large clue ot humanity - worship the number 6!
Do you heretics really need any more proof of the divine nature of the number six? Repent now or face the wrath of the Supreme! |
Plus, six is the product of two primes (2, 3) and if you add 1 (another prime) to 6, and multiply that number by 6, you'll get the Holy Number According To Adams - which itself has the quality of having its individual components add up to... 6.
((2*3)+1)*6=42
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Geronimo
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st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Geronimo -
Saturn's rings are evidence of trauma. What greater evidence do you see with Uranus?
It's eccentricity and orbital inclination to the ecliptic are evidence of an ejection. The favored theory among astronomers is that Pluto was ejected from Neptune.
No one said they observed the outer planets with optics, just that the outer planets appear in their creation texts. |
Uranus is tilted 90 degrees with respect to the orbital plane! The energy required to effect such a change in the orientation of such a large planet is immense, even by planetary astronomy standards.
Saturn on the other hand has ostenatious pretty rings. However, the mass of the rings is puny. It would not require much mass or energy really to create such rings. It might require some curious oribital sheperding by other satellites to keep such a ring system stable but tidal disruption of even quite a small satellite or a collision between two such small satellites would be expected to produce such rings for at least a few thousand years.
The Neptune ejection theory has been investigated and did not pan out. Frankly I don't think there is room for Pluto's oribit to have derived from any ejection scenario from the other planets.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:17
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John - quote:
I mean, I could argue that the ancient Sumerians/Incans/Mayans didn't have **** compared to the ancient Isrealites, whose account of creation does a far, far better job of roughly paralleling the scientific account of creation than anything done by others: |
Since you haven't read those accounts I'm talking about, how would you know?
quote:
Oops. Well, a little forgiveness can be granted in the spirit of literary license... after all, they're trying to explain nothing less than the creation of the Universe. Anyway, where were we... oh, yeah... gravitational clumping which led to... |
Genesis does not explain the universe, it's a story about the creation of Heaven and Earth in this little corner of the universe.
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Stars and planets. Unfortunately, the ancients had God inventing plants before he made the stars that fed them, but again, they didn't know everything. And maybe the first typesetter got these last two passages backwards. |
Genesis is a very short and adulterated version of the Enuma Elish so I rely on it mainly for clues and to support other myths.
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Again, they get a few details wrong (akin to insisting that there's 12 objects in the solar system, when in fact there are thousands), but we'll give them the benefit of doubt. |
How do you know all those objects were present before the creation of earth and not a result of the celestial collisions that spawned the earth? The Enuma Elish does speak of them, they are the horde of monsters born of Tiamat as battle neared and they were scattered when Tiamat lost.
An interloper planet with a highly elliptical retrograde orbit explains certain phenomenon from those comets we see following highly elliptical retrograde orbits. Some astronomers came up with the theiry of a nearby brown dwarf - the death star - following just that kind of arbit to explain these comets. Astronomers also say the earth got plastered about 4 billion years ago by a Mars sized object. The Enuma Elish describes just that. And astronomers are still looking for Planet X...
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So, if you want scientific accuracy in your belief system, just turn to the Bible. At least they didn't limit themselves to the creation of a mere solar system... no, the explanation of the creation of the Universe was their goal, and, for the most part, they got the general gist right. |
The solar system is exactly what the story is about, more specifically, the creation of earth and heaven. Where do you see the universe in Genesis? Look closely at how God creates Heaven and Earth? Heaven is the "firmament", or the Sumerian "hammered bracelet",
God used to divide the waters (planets?) above from the waters below. But does Genesis say God created these waters? No, God set boundaries for the waters below and called the bound water "seas". What about the Earth? What is it? This planet? No, God called the land exposed by the receding waters "Earth", with the emphasis on dry land. So there we have definitions for Heaven and Earth and neither qualifies as the universe or this planet.
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Plus we don't have to manufacture answers by multiplying this civilizations year by that civilizations number of Gods, and then dividing it by this other civilizations number of Kings. Or whatever. |
We do when one civilization spawned the other. The word "Sar" became Caesar and Czar. Pretending there is no connection between Genesis and the Mesopotamians ignores the overwhelming consensus among scolars that the connection is real. Or you could just take Joshua's word for it, he told the hebrew upon entering the promised land that in the olden times their fathers lived in Mesopotamia and served other gods.
DRose - quote:
Perhaps the signifigance of 7 lies not with Earth but with Mars when counting in-from-out. |
Mars is the 6th planet, but the number 7 is always in conjunction with earth.
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12-12-2004 08:03
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