13-12-2004 01:03									#1
	GK's problem Support Apolyton

Last turn, when I was preparing orders, I was a little bored and having the save open, I played with some things. One of the things I did was establish an embassy with CDG, finding the location of their capitol.

Unfortunately, the orders I edited in didn't stick (don't know why) so that although I mentioned it, Togas didn't know about it and didn't do so himself. He actually attacked CDG's galley.

As I had assumed that the orders stuck, I posted the info on our joint forum with PAL, so that they would also know the approximate locaiton of CDG's new capitol.

This is, unfortunately, a clear violation of the rules of playing Demo Games.

As unintentional as it is, I feel that I unfortunately must step aside in my duties as your MOI until either the info I inadvertantly discovered is rendered obsolete, or unless there is some sort of official ruling on the matter.

I will NOT go myself to the game administrators, as I feel that is something our Consuls or FAM should do if they so choose and feel is appropriate.

I will continue to work with PAL in the border negotiations, unless asked otherwise.

I wish to appologize to the team.

GK

	13-12-2004 01:55									#2
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Would us establishing an embassy with CDG this turn solve the problem?

	13-12-2004 02:49									#3
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Yes, except that we are now in war, and cannot establish the embassy until war is over and peace declaired.

The sooner this is done, the less damage is done.

	13-12-2004 22:09									#4
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I think we can largely fix the problem by changing a city build [not one planning on building a wonder] to an expensive improvement, cash rushing then change the build to something cheaper that wastes enough shields to cover the money-portion of the cheat.

	13-12-2004 22:47									#5
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So how many of us know where the new capital is? I certainly don't, and I doubt WIA or our new Consul knows either. We're the ones who play the save, and none of us are tainted by it.

I assume GK deleted the post and the inter-team forum right? We need to make sure that anyone from PAL who knows is screened off from their decision makings.

Officially, we did not found an embassy, it's just that GK did so in an unofficial save, and until we do so officially, GK cannot share that knowledge with anyone, nor can he use that knowledge in any way to aid our team.

GK's role as MOI does not use that knowledge at all. He should continue to give us orders and we will, as soon as CDG's boats are dead, offer them peace and THEN found a new embassy with them.

--Togas

	13-12-2004 23:28									#6
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Unfortunately, most of PAL, including their save player, MOI, MOW and FAM have read my post. I did not delete it, as at this point it would be silly because so many have commented on it. I can easily do so, but the entire post was quoted, and I cannot delete the quotes..... we need the PAL people to delete their own posts.

	14-12-2004 05:00									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Togas So how many of us know where the new capital is? I certainly don't, and I doubt WIA or our new Consul knows either. We're the ones who play the save, and none of us are tainted by it.

Nope, didn't even know about this at all.

No time for anything more ATM but a quick look around the forums. Will post more on things when I get the time (Christmas just HAPPEN already! ).

	14-12-2004 07:50									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I read the bananacookieexchange yesterday and wondered about that post.

I dont know what to do, I hate to lose GK, I guess I need to look at the rules but we are facing probably at least a single turn suspension.

	14-12-2004 09:33									#9
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Hmmmm. I wonder if there is a spy.

I posted at Banana, telling them of the problem. They said that they acknowledge my error, and would behave as if they didn't have the info.

BUT, at the CDG forum, they are calling for a halt to the game. They do not specify why. It might be because someone told them of the issue, or it might be because of our attack on their galley or it might be something entirely different. I know not, and they are not saying.

	14-12-2004 09:54									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh crap

And GK get rid of those pictures at Balderdash asap!

Swapping pictures of territory could be construed as a rules violation, and we have no security in that thread, the whole world could see it.

Its just bad ju ju, those pictures need to go.

	14-12-2004 18:52									#11
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Pic's gone.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 14-12-2004 at 20:43

	14-12-2004 20:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Pic's gone.

Thanks man.

i regret having to be the security and rules Nazi, I think you know me well enough to know, I wish we didn't have to worry about that at all, but unfortunately we do.

And I dont believe we ever got a response back from FortyJ on the swapping pictures of known territory prior to navigation yet, and now FortyJ has resigned as one of the game admins.

I guess I could dig up Togas's letter and forward it to Elucidus.

Togas just to confirm we did NOT get a response back from FortyJ on the swapping maps issue, correct?

Thanks

	14-12-2004 21:40									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We acted like we had an embassy in giving general directions to their city to PAL, so we ought to delete from our treasury how much it should have cost.

	14-12-2004 23:59									#14
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No there is a penalty for playing a save more than once to gain this kind of info.

Check the rules if you want to know the details, I dont have time right now.

	15-12-2004 00:13									#15
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I never did get a response from FortyJ about the map swapping stuff.

But more importantly, OUR TEAM did not abuse the save or replay it or whatnot, one of our players did. There were no orders to do so, none of the turnplayers did so, and none of the turnplayers have any knowledge of anything GK learned from doing the embassy check.

What's absolutely bizzare about all this is that GK posted the embassy shots at the Interteam forum website, but not our team forum website. None of our regular team members saw it, only GK and Con ... (and anyone else???)

We can't undo PAL's knowledge, though, of this information, that's the real problem. I don't know how that is to be remedied. I don't know what sort of penalty would be fair, here. GK's knowledge should definately be screened out. So long as none of us who play the save know about it, the better.

I definately don't think we should forcefully erase gold from our treasury, because we do not have the knowledge of the location of their capital and at an appropriate time we'll aquire that knowledge (it's easy, we just have to go back to peace again) and all is well. So long as PAL doesn't act on the knowledge until then, no harm can befall CDG.

--Togas

	15-12-2004 01:38									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think we should keep silence about this problem as we don't know anything. I don't know if I'm a consul but even if I am already I was offline in the last three days and I didn't receive the save - so, I can't know where CDG's capital is located. And I didn't see the posts in the other forum too.

I think there is a good chance noone except us and PAL learns about this. And Godking may conitnue with his duties as MoI.

	15-12-2004 04:55									#17
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Actually, you cannot post screen shots on the joint forum. I didn't take any, as I was not playing a save, just using the save to prepare my orders.

What I did do was post a description of the location (tile numbers from one of PAL's cities, and direction), along with a description of the surriounding tiles and the fact that there was nothing to indicate that Phoenix (the city name) was a part of another civ (ie it wasn't gifted to them, but settled by them) and that no improvements or foreign borders were visible.

The posts are in the thead entitled "PAL & APO have a problem, CDG lives on" or something like that.

	15-12-2004 08:00									#18
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Well I think the gig is up.

Elucidus claims he tried to get ahold of me and posted at CDG to that effect 15 minutes ago.

:sigh:

I feel like I just got called to the principles office

	16-12-2004 15:45									#19
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Updating: Elucidus was asking con about the issue of us declaring war on CDG again so quickly, and the concern IIRC was about the possible eliminating WW exploit. I really don't think this applies at all here, as IIRC we should get all that WW back straight away, and the only one who'd get a benefit would be CDG, especially since they WON that battle. Admittedly war weariness isn't all that well quantified anywhere, but I do know that it takes quite some time of peace for WW to dissipate, the defender gets a boost and the loser of battles takes a hit.

From memory (I was quite busy when all this was happening today), con somehow managed to satisfy Elucidus.

con - could you please fill us in on that when you get a chance? I was all prepared to defend our actions, and I am only really guessing a bit at what went on. You just told me it was OK, at some point...

	16-12-2004 20:39									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

yep it sure is OK. Elucidus posted in the UN that there was no wrong doing.

I posted the chat in the FA topped thread but essentially after he found out we were only at war for 7 turns, and there was no CDG in sight (at the time we gave peace) that our accepting peace was NOT an attempt to dissipate war weariness.

On the contrary based on the facts, with no CDG units in sight we could have essentially demanded peace based on the 3.6 rule which is that one where someone has to give peace if no possibility of battle exists.

So your input and Oct_X's input helped me to win the day.

On the issue of playing ahead and the screen shots, GK has gotten rid of the potentially harnfull posts and oictures here and at the bananacookieexchange. I have asked PAL NOT to use the embassy information, and I dont think many saw the info.

PAL said no problem dont worry about it we will be at peace with CGN soon as this galley thing gets done and will establish an emabassy and then the issue is essentially dead.

Thats about it

	16-12-2004 22:49									#21
	Put an end to popups!

--Togas

	16-12-2004 23:00									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

SHould I restart as MOI?

	16-12-2004 23:05									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by GodKing SHould I restart as MOI?

Yes

--Togas

	16-12-2004 23:09									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

My ears hurt. Could you say that a little louder please....

	16-12-2004 23:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing SHould I restart as MOI?

Dam talk about STUPID questions.

Togas and I agree 100% on this one.

Thats two slaps upside the head I owe you when I get back up to Motown.

And I think that six pack you owe must just grew to a twelve pack.

I may even make you go to Windsor and get me some good stuff

	16-12-2004 23:52									#26
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*ROFL*

	16-12-2004 23:55									#27
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Ya, well, when you show up don't forget that bottle of Capn' you owe me.

And pick the t!tt! bar of your choice, of course.

	17-12-2004 00:04									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by GodKing Ya, well, when you show up don't forget that bottle of Capn' you owe me. And pick the t!tt! bar of your choice, of course.

T!TT bar, no way, if we are going to go out an have fun, you'll be taking me to the nearest whore house.

When the old one eyed moisture missle is on a mission he likes to find the target and execute.

*con thanks god his wife doesn't like CIV!*