13-12-2004 21:24									#1
	2152: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Enter the AD-FREE zone

New build orders will be needed in almost all of our bases following the Hoplite draft.

And a simple move - if KopObs hasn't its defender built, then Warwag waltzes in and heals to 100%

Chiron Knights enters AU, and then Kel sorties out to kill the mindworm

Mercury sails back to Vlad - loads up with a longstrider, the Castor Horsemen, the new synthrover defender (which moseyed down to Vlad from OA) and a Hoplite from Vlad

Colony pod and Crypteia load on to Hermes, which heads south for Rio Rojo. MT's Hoplite-in-transit plods wearily into Hive territory to avoid the fungal wall en route to rendezvous at the base site with the Hermes' cargo

Colony pod, scout and Crypteia head up the Rio Grande towards the Messennian Plains

	15-12-2004 18:41									#2
	Re: 2152: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Googlie And a simple move - if KopObs hasn't its defender built, then Warwag waltzes in and heals to 100% Colony pod and Crypteia load on to Hermes, which heads south for Rio Rojo. MT's Hoplite-in-transit plods wearily into Hive territory to avoid the fungal wall en route to rendezvous at the base site with the Hermes' cargo Colony pod, scout and Crypteia head up the Rio Grande towards the Messennian Plains

Sounds great!

quote: Mercury sails back to Vlad - loads up with a longstrider, the Castor Horsemen, the new synthrover defender (which moseyed down to Vlad from OA) and a Hoplite from Vlad

Small suggestion: Re the synth rover I've been thinking about a possible alternative. What do you think about this: We could always first upgrade the new trance skirmisher at the monolith to elite before moving to VV. If SNC Mercury ends its 2152 turn in Amursky Bay (68.12), in MY 2153 the 3-MP skirmisher could still catch the transport before it leaves for Arcadia. A drawback of this is of course the Mercury couldn't for example end its turn on (70.10), which would allow the transport to reach Arcadia University two MPs earlier.

quote: Chiron Knights enters AU, and then Kel sorties out to kill the mindworm

Sounds a good option to me. Though I'm wondering how about letting the worm move next to the base itself instead of moving out to toast it? This would allow another unit to toast the worm and allow Spartan Kel to immediately execute the plan to sneak to Otkrietia-Discovery. Kel could be accompanied by Warwag, which would be free and fully repaired after having captured and being rehomed to KopOb. Garrison duties could in this option be taken care of by Chiron Knights in KopOb (with a rehoming to there) and by Shinsengumi in ArcUni (with rehoming). (I hope I don't have the names confused - more difficult to keep track now they're all impact).

Formers

Besides many new build orders, many formers will also need new orders.

What to do with the formers on the minerals mine near Vladivostok?

What do with the formers on the RG rocky minerals tile? (53.15) could use a forest I guess, but sending all three there would be rather inefficient.

What about Tomcat-SCS1 between GH and SC2? Plant a forest on eg (55.19), build a sensor array, or a farm somewhere...?


Some random suggestions:

SC1 will have three drones after capturing Koppernigk Observatory (as SC1 is the only base left without any b-drone). Make the third 2-1-0 worker a doctor? MY 2152 GH will be on the point of growing, so then we could make a GH worker into a doctor, and move an Ogre to SC1.

What would you think about letting SCC Invincible pop that unity pod it passed? It has 6 MPs now, so it can always run away should an IoD appear. The worst that could happen is we giving the Gaians some free kelp farms.

How about hurrying the crawler production in FB a bit?


Unit shuffling plan

I had a look what we could all possibly do with all those new hoplites. How about this unit shuffling plan to focus support in GH & SC4, while at the same time upgrade 3 hoplites (to be sent to Arcadia with the next Mercury ferry?) to elite?

Move the just trained SC1 hoplite on the (62.18) monolith.
Move the just trained SC2 hoplite on the monolith.
Move the commando SC1 scout patrol garrisoning OA on the monolith.

Now we've got three elite units to send to Arcadia.

These moves create the problem though that there's only one scout patrol left in OA, while two are necessary to quell all drones.
To solve this problem, I'd once again suggest a whole chain move of hoplites:

The SC4 hoplite in SC2 moves to OA.
The GH hoplite moves to SC2.
One of the SC4 garrisons move to GH and rehomes to that base.

Together with Warwag Shinsengumi rehoming to ArcUni, this should free up two minerals in SC4. These can be filled by further rehoming RG units to that base:

One of the SC3 garrisons moves to SC4 and rehomes. In exchange the SC4 garrison moves to SC3.
The RG hoplite in FB moves to SC4 and rehomes.
The RG hoplite in RG moves to FB.

At the end of the whole chain this leaves one garrison short in Rio Grande. However due to RG's high production it could finish another hoplite MY 2153 already. As drone riots are checked for after the production phase, there wouldn't be a drone riot.

	15-12-2004 21:54									#3
	Re: Re: 2152: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Sounds a good option to me. Though I'm wondering how about letting the worm move next to the base itself instead of moving out to toast it? This would allow another unit to toast the worm and allow Spartan Kel to immediately execute the plan to sneak to Otkrietia-Discovery.

I agree with this. Why go chasing down that mindworm? It will come to us eventually. It's even kinda nice having it there in case some sneaky Uni Battle Ogres are marching around in the north.

	16-12-2004 09:49									#4
	Re: Re: 2152: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Small suggestion: Re the synth rover I've been thinking about a possible alternative. What do you think about this: We could always first upgrade the new trance skirmisher at the monolith to elite before moving to VV. If SNC Mercury ends its 2152 turn in Amursky Bay (68.12), in MY 2153 the 3-MP skirmisher could still catch the transport before it leaves for Arcadia. A drawback of this is of course the Mercury couldn't for example end its turn on (70.10), which would allow the transport to reach Arcadia University two MPs earlier.

We could stop Mercury at 70:10, and load the Longstrider, the Hoplite, the Castor Horsemen and the trance skirmisher, and then Mercury backtracks to 77:9 and unloads - turn after the Trance Skirmisher takes out the mindworm, possibly getting an Elite upgrade then?

quote: Though I'm wondering how about letting the worm move next to the base itself instead of moving out to toast it? This would allow another unit to toast the worm and allow Spartan Kel to immediately execute the plan to sneak to Otkrietia-Discovery. Kel could be accompanied by Warwag, which would be free and fully repaired after having captured and being rehomed to KopOb. Garrison duties could in this option be taken care of by Chiron Knights in KopOb (with a rehoming to there) and by Shinsengumi in ArcUni (with rehoming). (I hope I don't have the names confused - more difficult to keep track now they're all impact).

Well, the mindworm hasn't moved in 2 turns (not even onto a fungus rapid-healing tile) so my guess is that it's going to sit there for another couple of turns at least - see my comments above re the synthsentinel taking it out.

quote: Formers Besides many new build orders, many formers will also need new orders. What to do with the formers on the minerals mine near Vladivostok?

I suggest a farm on 66:10 and a forest on 65:11

quote: What do with the formers on the RG rocky minerals tile? (53.15) could use a forest I guess, but sending all three there would be rather inefficient.

How about sending 2 up the Rio Grande with the cp, scout and crypteia to work the tiles for Messenia. It's going to be just one of a handful of Naval Bases, so it'd be good to get a mine on 58:8 and farms on 57:9 and 59:9 for growth and minerals. The third can plant a forest on 53:11

quote: What about Tomcat-SCS1 between GH and SC2? Plant a forest on eg (55.19), build a sensor array, or a farm somewhere...?

I'd farm 56:20 and forest 58:20

And re sensors. For max effect we should have them on 53:15 (protects 4 bases), 60:20 (protects 3 bases) and 65:15 (2 bases plus the one eventually to be built on 67:17)

quote: Some random suggestions: SC1 will have three drones after capturing Koppernigk Observatory (as SC1 is the only base left without any b-drone). Make the third 2-1-0 worker a doctor? MY 2152 GH will be on the point of growing, so then we could make a GH worker into a doctor, and move an Ogre to SC1.

good strategy

quote: What would you think about letting SCC Invincible pop that unity pod it passed? It has 6 MPs now, so it can always run away should an IoD appear. The worst that could happen is we giving the Gaians some free kelp farms.

It is 20% damaged, so will it still have 6 mp's (it did have 4, but we were avoiding pops 'cos simulations showed we'd lose the ship to a MW) It'd take 3 to pop the pod, so might only have 1 left to flee if it is a MW. How about a bit more ocean exploring, ending just south of the pod (ie SW, S, SE then E round that fungus field to finish the turn at 66:88. Next turn we then put something huge in play at Minas Tirith (a trance plasma rover supply at 180 mins?) in case we get a build bonus

quote: How about hurrying the crawler production in FB a bit?

Could do - it'll be 11 mins short with 1.1 rows to go

quote: Unit shuffling plan I had a look what we could all possibly do with all those new hoplites. How about this unit shuffling plan to focus support in GH & SC4, while at the same time upgrade 3 hoplites (to be sent to Arcadia with the next Mercury ferry?) to elite? Move the just trained SC1 hoplite on the (62.18) monolith. Move the just trained SC2 hoplite on the monolith. Move the commando SC1 scout patrol garrisoning OA on the monolith. Now we've got three elite units to send to Arcadia. These moves create the problem though that there's only one scout patrol left in OA, while two are necessary to quell all drones. To solve this problem, I'd once again suggest a whole chain move of hoplites: The SC4 hoplite in SC2 moves to OA. The GH hoplite moves to SC2. One of the SC4 garrisons move to GH and rehomes to that base. Together with Warwag Shinsengumi rehoming to ArcUni, this should free up two minerals in SC4. These can be filled by further rehoming RG units to that base: One of the SC3 garrisons moves to SC4 and rehomes. In exchange the SC4 garrison moves to SC3. The RG hoplite in FB moves to SC4 and rehomes. The RG hoplite in RG moves to FB. At the end of the whole chain this leaves one garrison short in Rio Grande. However due to RG's high production it could finish another hoplite MY 2153 already. As drone riots are checked for after the production phase, there wouldn't be a drone riot.

WOW - just went thru them sequentially - talk about maximising assets!!!

(I posted in the genral forums that I'm learning something new almost every turn - I wasn't exaggerating.)

Logical builds for 2152 would then be:

OA - a crawler
RG - another Hoplite
AU - finishing its Crypteia
SC - a Crypteia
SC2 - a colony pod?
SC3 - a Crypteia
SC4 - no minerals
FB - rushing its crawler
GH - finishing (rushing?) its Hoplite
Vlad - a crawler
MT - a crawler (trance plasma rover if we are going to pop the Gaian pod)

Moves for the Hunter and Pegasus

I'd be in favor of sending the Peg unescorted down through the River Styx to pick up R-112 and drop off its longstrider in Gaian territory for an infiltration operation

I'd send the Hunter back to the Northern Buster Ocean just to let Morgan know that we have the muscle to back up the Modo Doctrine if needed (show the flag, in other words)

In fact, I'd even backtrack the Invincible - via that pod 3 tiles away - round the south of lalaLand and up his east coast to get between Arcadia and Morgan land eventually

G.

	16-12-2004 19:09									#5
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I'm thinking too, why don't we steal Opticals from Kop Obs with the longstrider before we invade the base (it'll use 3/9 mps to board the mercury, 1/9 to offload at 78:10, 1/9 to move into AU and rehome there (so that it returns there) and still has 4/9 to move down the 3-tile road to Kop Obs for the steal

Then turn after we can repeat to MonStat and get his map (IIRC in a test a couple of turns ago he was offering a map of Hive territory - that might have been another game I was playing though, but I think I was testing in this one why Zak wouldn't speak to us)

	16-12-2004 21:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie We could stop Mercury at 70:10, and load the Longstrider, the Hoplite, the Castor Horsemen and the trance skirmisher, and then Mercury backtracks to 74:10 - turn after it berths in AU, and the Trance Skirmisher takes out the mindworm, possibly getting an Elite upgrade then?

While I like the plan, is it possible? Won’t the skirmisher, not being elite yet, get stuck at (68.10), unable to board the transport?

quote: I suggest a farm on 66:10 and a forest on 65:11 I'd farm 56:20 and forest 58:20 And re sensors. For max effect we should have them on 53:15 (protects 4 bases), 60:20 (protects 3 bases) and 65:15 (2 bases plus the one eventually to be built on 67:17) How about sending 2 up the Rio Grande with the cp, scout and crypteia to work the tiles for Messenia. It's going to be just one of a handful of Naval Bases, so it'd be good to get a mine on 58:8 and farms on 57:9 and 59:9 for growth and minerals.

quote: The third can plant a forest on 53:11

What will be the purpose of this forest? It’s in the base radius of RG, but it will take ages before RG grows to size 3. It could of course be crawlered, but is (53.15) then not better with its three minerals?

quote: It is 20% damaged, so will it still have 6 mp's (it did have 4, but we were avoiding pops 'cos simulations showed we'd lose the ship to a MW) It'd take 3 to pop the pod, so might only have 1 left to flee if it is a MW. How about a bit more ocean exploring, ending just south of the pod (ie SW, S, SE then E round that fungus field to finish the turn at 66:88. Next turn we then put something huge in play at Minas Tirith (a trance plasma rover supply at 180 mins?) in case we get a build bonus

Sounds like a plan.
Though personally I’d prefer to put a trance synthmetal rover supply at MT, so we can leave plasma armour unprototyped.

quote: Could do - it'll be 11 mins short with 1.1 rows to go

I think it’d cost eight credits to hurry.

quote: WOW - just went thru them sequentially - talk about maximising assets!!!

That’s something I like about placing bases so close. You can your units around all the time between your bases, giving you the feeling you’re playing with an interconnected faction instead of a collection of bases.

quote: OA - a crawler RG - another Hoplite AU - finishing its Crypteia SC - a Crypteia SC2 - a colony pod? SC3 - a Crypteia SC4 - no minerals FB - rushing its crawler GH - finishing (rushing?) its Hoplite Vlad - a crawler MT - a crawler

Sounds good to me!.
Two questions:
Re SC2, what would you think about letting that base build a crawler? While a colony pod is also useful, we currently still have very few crawlers, while we’d need five crawlers and 270 credits (for crawler upgrading) to construct the Citizen’s Defence Force.
Re Vladivostok, that will need a hoplite in five turns when the base grows to size 2. What would you prefer? Build the hoplite in Vlad (and thus build no crawler), or as you suggest hurry the hoplite in GH when VV is about to grow, and use that to be able to garrison Vlad (through a chain move: GH to SC2, SC2 to OA, and a OA hoplite to VV)?

quote: Moves for the Hunter and Pegasus I'd be in favor of sending the Peg unescorted down through the River Styx to pick up R-112 and drop off its longstrider in Gaian territory for an infiltration operation I'd send the Hunter back to the Northern Buster Ocean just to let Morgan know that we have the muscle to back up the Modo Doctrine if needed (show the flag, in other words) In fact, I'd even backtrack the Invincible - via that pod 3 tiles away - round the south of lalaLand and up his east coast to get between Arcadia and Morgan land eventually

Great plan! Let’s show those Morganites we’re not to be pushed around.

quote: I'm thinking too, why don't we steal Opticals from Kop Obs with the longstrider before we invade the base (it'll use 3/9 mps to board the mercury, 1/9 to offload at 78:10, 1/9 to move into AU and rehome there (so that it returns there) and still has 4/9 to move down the 3-tile road to Kop Obs for the steal

I'm not sure, but doesn't a unit loses all movement points upon boarding a transport?

	17-12-2004 05:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I'm not sure, but doesn't a unit loses all movement points upon boarding a transport?

You are correct (I guess I never knew that - another thing filed away for future reference)

I guess then there's no reason not to take the mercury right to 68:12, load up with everyone, and then overnight at 71:11. In 2153 it can then go right into AUI and the Longstrider can get Opticals from Mon Stat (if we've captured KopObs in the meantime)

	17-12-2004 19:12									#8
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Wierd.

Rio Grande's changed course again. Colony Pod, crypteia and scout are no longer sitting by the riverside, but in a new zenofungus patch!! So they'll be a turn later in moving to the base site.

Sparta Command has its first B-drone

Moves so far:

• Warwag into Kop Obs (new name???) , rehomed there, now 100% healed
  
• mercury to Amursky Bay, loads with the Longstrider, Castor Horsemen, Hoplite (Elite) and the Trance Scout Skirmisher down from OA. Mercury turns and anchors for the night at 71:11
  
• Hunter moves 6 tiles due north to the "B" of Buster Ocean
  
• SC3's colony Pod, scout and Crypteia move 1 north onto the bend in ther Rio Grande
  
• Colony pod outside Vlad, and Vlad's Crypteia board Hermes and it moves south until stopped by the fungus at68:18
  
• Tomcats RG-1 and FB-1 move upriver 3 tiles through RG
  
• MT's peripatetic scout moves into hive territory to avoid the fungal wall blocking his movement to the new base site

Last edited by Googlie on 17-12-2004 at 19:23

	17-12-2004 20:35									#9
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Do you have a turn?

	17-12-2004 22:07									#10
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Sorry - got called away and had to deal with some stuff an hour or so ago

here's the midturn.sav

Most unit movement orders completed (including all the rehoming) and formers new orders.

Build orders incorporate Maniac's suggestions (ither than Kop Obs, where I put a Crypteia - 4 turns - into production (btw, it's a faux-drone there. Click on the base psych screen, it's a regular worker)

Had to take a worker offline at Sparta Commandm and move the sliders to 20% psych to stop other drone problems, but there may be simpler ways

(there are - moved a GH worker off the forest to a farm, switched SC2's forest worker to the now-vacated southern forest, and moved a SC worker from a farm to the now-vacated northern forest (picking up 2 energies from the forest, which with the 20% psych allocation turned the SC drone back into a productive worker)

I'll update the reporting thread after I post this save (save incorporates all the moves outl;ined in the post below, and the subsequent screenies are also taken from this save)

Attachment: acdg3-sparta, 2152 endturn.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

Last edited by Googlie on 18-12-2004 at 02:23

	18-12-2004 00:18									#12
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2152 production schedule:

Attachment: 2152-production.jpg
This has been downloaded 29 time(s).

	18-12-2004 00:23									#13
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And the state of our armed forces in 2152:

Attachment: 2152-sparta nexus.jpg
This has been downloaded 29 time(s).

	18-12-2004 02:12									#14
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Do you have a turn of the latest situation?

	18-12-2004 02:21									#15
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see about 4 posts above -rather than post after, as no-one had downloaded that pre-complete turn I just edited the latest save into there (but forgot to edit the text to say so)

Earlier post now edited for clarification

	18-12-2004 05:05									#16
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Our bases sorted by Mineral production (with builds and pops)

Attachment: 2152-bases by minerals.jpg
This has been downloaded 21 time(s).

	18-12-2004 07:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Rio Grande's changed course again.

The mysteries of the Rio Grande seem unsolvable.

Anyway, the turn looks great! Also great to see Argos is immediately so productive.

quote: Had to take a worker offline at Sparta Commandm and move the sliders to 20% psych to stop other drone problems, but there may be simpler ways

Possible other option could be to leave all the workers where they were, make the SC1 2-1-0 worker a doctor, and move a SC1 garrison to SC2. Don't know if this is any better though than your solution.


Btw, I don't understand why you changed some of the former orders. Some days ago you yourself suggested that two formers went to terraform near or a build a road to Messene. However now they're removing some fungus.
Also in the chat for the previous turn you suggested to let the formers then around OA to mine around SC1. Yet now one moved west to build a farm, one stayed put where it was last turn, and one moved south to help out there.

	18-12-2004 08:22									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Btw, I don't understand why you changed some of the former orders. Some days ago you yourself suggested that two formers went to terraform near or a build a road to Messene. However now they're removing some fungus.

That was just a holding manoeuver as they'd reached the end of their turn. Obviously to sit there for 4 turns just to clear fungus from a 10 meter river tile doesn't make sense

quote: Also in the chat for the previous turn you suggested to let the formers then around OA to mine around SC1. Yet now one moved west to build a farm, one stayed put where it was last turn, and one moved south to help out there.

AHA - I couldn't find instructions in this thread above, so I gave what seemed to make sense orders.

Tomcat SC-1 (sw of SC) is intended to link SC and GH to shorten travel time between those bases

FB-2 is continuing the road to MT

SanCit-1 didn't have the mp's to move onto the SC rocky tile so bogged down at the Monolith

And I thought that 59:15 had already been identified (rolling and rainy) as a farm location that could be worked by either SC2 or OA

	18-12-2004 20:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie That was just a holding manoeuver as they'd reached the end of their turn.

I don't understand. Isn't there the risk they could use up their turn before they could be reactivated next turn to do something else?

	18-12-2004 20:20									#20
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When you activate them next turn again they carry that 1st turn along with them (or any number that they've partially completed).

But storing then moving is illegal per the rules (instacomplete of mines, forests, etc) - however 1 turn isn't storing - it's just not wasting it (versus if a former has completed something this turn - say a farm, then you put it to building, say, a sensor - that's against the rules, 'cos it then hoards that additional turn when you then move it next turn. But following the end of a movement sequence with a terraform command isn't though, 'cos you could legitimately start it doing something that turn. (ie it just carries that first one with it - it doesn't add 1 complete every time it stops - and if you don't put it to terraform something every stop it loses that first one)

(At least that's how I've had that generally accepted PBEM rule explained in games I've CMN'd)

	18-12-2004 20:28									#21
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Ah I didn't know that thanks.

	19-12-2004 03:01									#22
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So I guess it's OK to post the turn with EthCalc and Soc Psych sent to the Angels on a pre-accepted basis?

(see IT Mart's post in the Embassy - they're fairly sure that they'll get Int Int offerred, and if not, will just select something the gaians have and get that something from them.)

	19-12-2004 06:14									#23
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Sounds great!
Sorry for the delay I caused.

	19-12-2004 06:17									#24
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No Prob - that's why 8 heads are better than 1!!

endturn is now final (no last minute changes)

2152 passed on to the Gaians