15-12-2004 04:17									#1
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	15-12-2004 04:24									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let me ask you this Che. What do you think the end result was going to be with the NEP, and how was this going to happen?

quote: posted by Che It was never meant to be a permenent policy. The purpose was to rescue Russia from the complete collapse of their economy. The end result was going to be, once Russia ha recovered from seven years of war, to begin a gradual collectivization.

Yes I realize that, but what was the idea about how this would become socialism? And how do you think it would have turned out if it weren't for forced collectivization?

	15-12-2004 04:25									#3
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I'll just quote my last post from the previous thread, addressed to Kid:

quote: Spiffor seems to be going in the same direction as me, although I'd still like to hear how this is more fair and prevents exploitation.

	15-12-2004 04:55									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I'll just quote my last post from the previous thread, addressed to Kid: quote: Spiffor seems to be going in the same direction as me, although I'd still like to hear how this is more fair and prevents exploitation.

Here's how it's more fair? Not everyone has a job, let alone a job that they want. You may not call it a choice but it's an improvement. It's not a system for people like you. It's a system for people like me. If you don't think it's fair, well, I could really care less.

	15-12-2004 04:58									#5
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Plan a job and train people for it. That's just laughable. First of all, people are not interchangeable parts with the same abilities to do each job, nor a desire to do them. So unless you have a dictatorial system where people are ordered to do things they otherwise would not ( or face dire consequences) I can't see the central planning thing working. Frankly some jobs are more desirable than others.


Take nursing. Mrs Flubber is an RN. There is another study that predicts a nursing shortage again in about 3 years ( both in Canada and throughout the US UK etc). When the shortage was predicted a few years back, the market responded and most jurisdictions saw nurses get big raises. The result was fewer retirements, some more entries into nursing schools, a number of nurses re-entering the profession after time away with children or trying other career options. The bottom line is that market responded and additional nurses became available alleviating the shortage.

It still exists though. On a local level Mrs Flubber indicated she was one of 5 nurses last week that was on double pay overtime ( in a 14 nurse unit). Frankly her unit does not have enough nurses so they compensate by offering overtime. Mrs Flubber is one of several nurses that will never go in unless double time is offered.


Now in a planned economy with wage equalization ( as I see Kid and not che proposing), I assume that overtime would be frowned on and double time not allowed. Problem is that those darn sick people are so inconsistent in how many get sick. One weekend you need 10 nurses in a unit and next time 14. Rotating nurses is not an option due to safety concerns ( it takes months to even get to reasonable competence in an ICU)

I'm guessing that the planned economy folks would simply say train more folks. But hmmm you are going to need more than enough to meet maximum demand with no incentives for overtime which means more than you need most of the time. PLUS you have to get people to agree to go into a profession that is stressful and hard. It is a battle to attract nurses now when they can make 60-70K . . . How exactly are you going to convince people to do this job on a wide scale when there is NO financial incentive . Its not glamorous -- unless you see cleaming biodily fluids from a person as somehow more appealing than say mopping them from the floor.

	15-12-2004 05:01									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Here's how it's more fair? Not everyone has a job, let alone a job that they want. You may not call it a choice but it's an improvement. It's not a system for people like you. It's a system for people like me. If you don't think it's fair, well, I could really care less.

and that my friends sums up kids ideas--


ITS A SYSTEM FOR HIM !!!


and to hell with the rest of us


you are missing good stuff here kid

	15-12-2004 05:09									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You may not call it a choice but it's an improvement. It's not a system for people like you. It's a system for people like me. If you don't think it's fair, well, I could really care less.

Waht are "people like you" and "people like me" ?

	15-12-2004 05:10									#8
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Seriously, I haven't found any jobs that I like. All of the jobs that I've taken have been out of necessity and basically determined by the market place. I don't know anything about selecting your job and going out there and doing it.

	15-12-2004 05:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Waht are "people like you" and "people like me" ?

Some people have more choices in capitalism. Most don't have really any at all. They just go through life struggling to survive and doing what is necessary to survive. That includes taking jobs they don't want to do.

	15-12-2004 05:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Plan a job and train people for it. That's just laughable. First of all, people are not interchangeable parts with the same abilities to do each job, nor a desire to do them. So unless you have a dictatorial system where people are ordered to do things they otherwise would not ( or face dire consequences) I can't see the central planning thing working. Frankly some jobs are more desirable than others.

Actually, such a system can work without dictatorship. The planning authority decides how many new [insert job here] are needed this year, and they simply give a numerus clausus to the universities: everybody who wants can apply, but only the x best people will enter the cursus.

However, I'm not sure if such would be the system Kid supports, because such a system would be unfair to those who didn't manage to enter the cursus.

	15-12-2004 05:15									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor However, I'm not sure if such would be the system Kid supports, because such a system would be unfair to those who didn't manage to enter the cursus.

Not at all.

	15-12-2004 05:15									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Seriously, I haven't found any jobs that I like. All of the jobs that I've taken have been out of necessity and basically determined by the market place. I don't know anything about selecting your job and going out there and doing it.

And thus you are a victim of capitalism's coercion. But you appear to be a student now, IIRC, and you do so because you want a better job (maybe not more exciting, but at least better paid). Would you prefer to be told by a planning comitee "You are now a coal miner, and you will live in the Yukon mines for the rest of your life"? I'm not sure that even you would like it.

	15-12-2004 05:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And thus you are a victim of capitalism's coercion. But you appear to be a student now, IIRC, and you do so because you want a better job (maybe not more exciting, but at least better paid). Would you prefer to be told by a planning comitee "You are now a coal miner, and you will live in the Yukon mines for the rest of your life"? I'm not sure that even you would like it.

Actually I don't find accounting that desirable of work. It's ok, but there certainly are other jobs. However, there is demand for accounting so that is what I go to school for. My father gave me very bad advice and told me to study what I found interesting and the money would follow. I studied economics initially, and got a degree. Where the hell is the money in that? You have to get a doctors degree, but I have no means to go to school for that? That is a waste of resources, and it's not exactly making me happy.

	15-12-2004 05:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Seriously, I haven't found any jobs that I like. All of the jobs that I've taken have been out of necessity and basically determined by the market place. I don't know anything about selecting your job and going out there and doing it.

And this changes in your system how? You still don't get to do a job you like, only you wouldn't be able to get a job you like even marginally more.

	15-12-2004 05:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki And this changes in your system how? You still don't get to do a job you like, only you wouldn't be able to get a job you like even marginally more.

Look I'm a guy of above average intelligence. I have some propensity for math and things like that. I won't be a coal miner in a communist system, but in a capitalist system that's a very real possibility, because of the free market. If the market changes during my training, or I get laid off during my career I'm going to have to scramble to survive, and I might very well end up in that coal mine.

	15-12-2004 05:33									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Actually I don't find accounting that desirable of work. It's ok, but there certainly are other jobs. However, there is demand for accounting so that is what I go to school for. My father gave me very bad advice and told me to study what I found interesting and the money would follow. I studied economics initially, and got a degree. Where the hell is the money in that? You have to get a doctors degree, but I have no means to go to school for that? That is a waste of resources, and it's not exactly making me happy.

But in Kidumism, the state has created a job for you picking up trash. And you don't have any choice to move to a different job. Wow, your system really is an improvement for people like you!

	15-12-2004 05:38									#17
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Unfortunately, we are all of "above average intelligence". With proper exploitation, human intelligence can be a wonder in all but a few individuals. Most people who do repetitive labour are wasting their intelligence on such stupid jobs.
I don't think our brain structure eveolved too much in 200 years, but only two centuries ago, most people were peasants, and their intelligence was hardly tapped. Fact is, repetitive labour will be a reality as long as it won't be fully automated. And there will be people whose intelligence will be wasted in the process:

The question is: how can we make a system that is both efficient and fairer, in that those people who see their potential wasted do not get financially ****ed, at least?

	15-12-2004 05:43									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Look I'm a guy of above average intelligence. I have some propensity for math and things like that. I won't be a coal miner in a communist system, but in a capitalist system that's a very real possibility, because of the free market. If the market changes during my training, or I get laid off during my career I'm going to have to scramble to survive, and I might very well end up in that coal mine.

So once you equalize opportunities in education and social support, you still think you're going to be of above average intelligence, assuming you are now?

Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

	15-12-2004 05:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

I don't know the particulars for Kid, but there are important societal factors. Family's income, family's emphasis on education, family's relationships considerably influence the early career-making (starting with success at school and choice of university branch). The attitudes of the social groups you belong to (friends' circles, overall culture) also influence what choices you'll make.

Now, there are people who can transcend a bad background through hard work, and there are probably people who have a background similar to Kid's and who yet managed to get better jobs despite a lower intelligence. But to say that hard work is the only factor in general is perfectly false.

	15-12-2004 05:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki But in Kidumism, the state has created a job for you picking up trash. And you don't have any choice to move to a different job. Wow, your system really is an improvement for people like you!

If I'm not the best person to do the other jobs then I don't really expect to have those jobs. But I would still be happy to live in a communist society that treats it's trash pickerupers very well.

	15-12-2004 05:56									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki So once you equalize opportunities in education and social support, you still think you're going to be of above average intelligence, assuming you are now? Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

Another *******

	15-12-2004 06:00									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't know the particulars for Kid, but there are important societal factors. Family's income, family's emphasis on education, family's relationships considerably influence the early career-making (starting with success at school and choice of university branch). The attitudes of the social groups you belong to (friends' circles, overall culture) also influence what choices you'll make. Now, there are people who can transcend a bad background through hard work, and there are probably people who have a background similar to Kid's and who yet managed to get better jobs despite a lower intelligence. But to say that hard work is the only factor in general is perfectly false.

The market has a lot to do with it too. A lot of it is making choices for yourself. Making choices for yourself isn't all smarts though. In fact, it's mostly luck. And it means that you just go after the highest paying jobs, and not the jobs that you truly desire.

	15-12-2004 06:04									#23
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Another *******,

How exaclty does being laid off make you lazy? What about training for a career that is closed? How does that make you lazy? Why do you think that the person who keeps his job or trains for an open career is motivated?

	15-12-2004 06:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The market has a lot to do with it too. A lot of it is making choices for yourself. Making choices for yourself isn't all smarts though. In fact, it's mostly luck.

Actually, it's a blend of both. In your formative years, the choice you make (between general or trade education, long or short studies) has strongly to do with your social and cultural background. The precise job you'll occupy after your formative years, among the panel that your education opens to you, depends strongly on luck.

quote: And it means that you just go after the highest paying jobs, and not the jobs that you truly desire.

True. Sometimes you can shine in the job you truly desire, but in general, you go where there simply is demand.

	15-12-2004 06:35									#25
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Capcom

	15-12-2004 06:36									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Actually, it's a blend of both. In your formative years, the choice you make (between general or trade education, long or short studies) has strongly to do with your social and cultural background. The precise job you'll occupy after your formative years, among the panel that your education opens to you, depends strongly on luck.

That sounds about right to me.

	15-12-2004 06:38									#27
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Capcom

Isn't that a freedom fighter for your little children's revolutionary movement?

	15-12-2004 06:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Plan a job and train people for it. That's just laughable. First of all, people are not interchangeable parts with the same abilities to do each job, nor a desire to do them. So unless you have a dictatorial system where people are ordered to do things they otherwise would not ( or face dire consequences) I can't see the central planning thing working.

Individuals are not interchangeable parts. A population is composed of a large number of individuals, each with her own likes and dislikes. If you have a large enough population, you can pretty much find somebody to fill any job opening you have.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Frankly some jobs are more desirable than others.

I agree, but different people have different preferences. Some rather be carpenters than doctors, say.

	15-12-2004 06:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

There are several problems with this.

First of all, motivation directly ties with interest. IOW, if somebody is interested in doing something, he will be much more motivated doing it. Hunger and death never serve as good motivators - sure, people will work to avoid these, but productivity will never get high.

Secondly, claiming that "people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do" is unfair. As it was pointed out before, luck is an important if not overarching factor. Are you dumber than GWB? Why is he the President of the United States and you aren't?

Thirdly, how do you define "better jobs?" Higher pay? More social recognition? Large number of perks? What?

	15-12-2004 07:01									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Another *******, How exaclty does being laid off make you lazy? What about training for a career that is closed? How does that make you lazy? Why do you think that the person who keeps his job or trains for an open career is motivated?

Useless to society,

Motivated people will take the initiative and look at long-term prospects for employment and not go down a dead end. If they find themselves in a job that looks to be on the chopping block, they've probably seen the writing on the wall and made alternative arrangements. They may not always do what they want or live where they want, but they'll suck it up with a long term plan and make things happen for themselves, and not ***** about how the system is screwing them over.

A lazy person will accept their fate, maybe complain about it, and refuse to do any number of things that will improve their financial position.