15-12-2004 20:57									#1
	Conquest: WWII: Pacific Bug Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm using C3C, patch 1.22.

I played as Chinese, and recovered Nanjing, the ex-Chinese Capital on April, 1942. I surprisely found out that it's all Japanese in the city and they are resistent to Chinese troops!

This is a big mistake, and did not respect the history.
At the time of Pacific war begin for American, Chinese already fought Japanese four years all by ourselves.
Due to military weakness, Chinese lost many cities like Nanjing, Canton to Japanese, but they were all Chinese
cities, and they are mostly Chinese people in the cities.
When Japanese troops occupied Nanjing, they killed 300000 Chinese, in which most are civilians. If you don't this part of history, you can read Iris Chang's "The Rape of NanKing". It happend from 12/13/1937.

Therefore it's a big mistake to put all Japanese in before-war-Chinese cities like Nanking(Nanjing), Canton(Guangdong), etc. I tried to make the change myself using the civ3_editor, but I found out that I can only edit the ownership of a city, but can't change the people's civ trait within a city. i understand that's the cause of this problem.

Therefore I hope Firaxis could fix this problem in the future patches, because
1. the current MOD does not respect the history
2. It's a insult to Chinese people, espacially those died in WWII
3. The editor should has better funtion to edit MOD and conquests.


Thanks!

A Chinese player

	15-12-2004 21:02									#2
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That is a clear mistake, yeah. I wonder, however, if it's due to limitations of the Conquests editor. Anyone who knows anything about WWII in the Pacific theater knows about the Rape of Nanking (at least some basic knowledge). There are many historical inaccuracies in CivIII, although few as glaring as this one. That's what makes me suspect it's a problem with the editor...

Unfortunately, with Firaxis now working on CIV, it appears that further patches for CivIII are not in the cards. Several bugs remain (although I wouldn't call this particular one a bug, but rather an error. It's not a gameplay issue so much as a historical one).

-Arrian

	15-12-2004 21:15									#3
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Thank you for understanding the problem.

I think civ3 is very good to introduce the concept of Civ/race traits to richly reflect history and put more in-game flavour. It's just pityful that the Editor could not take advantage of it.

	15-12-2004 21:32									#4
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I could be wrong about it being an editor problem. That's just a guess (I don't use the editor). It could have simply been an oversight.

You could ask about it in the Creation forum, and maybe it's possible to do a quick fix.

-Arrian

	15-12-2004 21:42									#5
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Ok, I go over and ask them. Thanks.

	16-12-2004 01:18									#6
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What if they did it to allow the city to stay in their control, without a revolt? If they made it Chinese, then you would have to deal with resistance and such.

They probably did not want Nanking to revolt back during the game, that would really mess up the history and the strategy.

The easiest way to do it is to make the pop Japanese. Once it is recaptured, you can deal with the Japanese resistors in anyway.

Of course it could just be an oversight.

	16-12-2004 10:24									#7
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poor old firaxis

damned if they do, damned if they do not

basically they should just be damned

	16-12-2004 20:36									#8
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personally I think they should be chinese citizens.

It should have to be a strategy of Japan to keep units in there. That would model real life situations. You can't expect to keep a token defense in that city while you move all your troops to the front lines.

As for the AI. I'm not really sure. Has the ai had a lot of problems keeping recently conquered cities? I have never noticed any problem. They seem to put enough troops in there to quell the resistance.

And isn't culture flipping disabled in this scenario?

	17-12-2004 03:30									#9
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Maybe they want to be under Chang Kai-shek's Nationalist China, & not Chairman Mao's Communist China.

	18-12-2004 04:15									#10
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Culture flips are off, so this wouldn't be the problem. It's completely annoying, not only due to historical inaccuracy, but also since you have to quell all those resistors. However, it is not possible to achieve it with the editor - but there were several changes done due to requests of the scenario designers, so I don't really see that justified.
Something similarily annoying are the not-expand borders; if you play with China, you must mobilize, so this really hurts you. And retain culture is an editor option...
If you look closer, you find that kind of flaws in most Conquests. For example, Napoleonic depicts Sweden and Netherlands as backwards Civs (no Banks or Unis), while Portugal has all of those.
IMHO only the 2 Scenarios made by Ed Beach (MA, FoR), and Mesopotamia are "perfect" when it comes to those "minor issues".

	18-12-2004 09:20									#11
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Glad to see you over here, DocT