18-12-2004 04:00									#1
	Post-war priorities Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What exactly are our plans post-war? I'm going to assume that we eradicate Lego and they are either eliminated or seek refuge someplace else within the next, say, 4 turns.

1. Division of Legoland..

1a. Does GoW keep the Northern wonder cities if they don't disband?

1b. Do we implement a settlement plan of our portion, or just plant cities on resources/luxuries?

1c. calculations for a palace/fp jump feasibility.

1d. What military presence do we leave on Legoland? Defensive/ cultural frontier fortifications.

1d. Does RP maintain a piece of the land?


2. Long term

2a. What land would we need to capture in addition to Stormia and half of legoland to win the game?

2b. Space race: continuing the calculations into the feasibility of a one-turn launch.

2c. Diplomatic win discussion, already discussed to great extent.

2d. Diplomacy with GoW and ND, preparation in case of war between the two.

2e. How much land does GoW need in addition to half of legoland and their natural holdings?

2f. What does ND need to trigger domination?



And other questions and priorities as they arise.

	18-12-2004 04:07									#2
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From my pov, I would like to see us semi-develop the southern half of lego. Plant cities at appropriate spacing and try to bulk up the population there. We might need the land or the population for the UN vote, unless we build it (or I'm confused ) Also added population there would mean that we are more safe from a one-turn annhilation. Plus if need be we can draft defenders in those cities.

Down sides- horribly corrupt unless we could move the fp or palace over. Would the other teams view us as more of a threat if we bulked up on cities?

If nothing else, it would be great fun to rebuild half a continent from scratch, laying out defensive positions of roads and forests leading to GoW lands!

	18-12-2004 04:35									#3
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Ummm, sleepy, you left out plain ole warmongering.

	18-12-2004 05:03									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Ummm, sleepy, you left out plain ole warmongering.

quote: 2a. What land would we need to capture in addition to Stormia and half of legoland to win the game?

	18-12-2004 07:02									#5
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel What exactly are our plans post-war? I'm going to assume that we eradicate Lego and they are either eliminated or seek refuge someplace else within the next, say, 4 turns.

I'm not so optimistically. If they want to play it hard, it's going to take longer than 4 turns before eliminination.

quote: 1. Division of Legoland.. 1a. Does GoW keep the Northern wonder cities if they don't disband?

Nope. Legopolis should be abandoned when they give the save to RP. Jackson should be our goal, unless we get some kind of deal with GoW to attack Abilene instead (that is, if the city is still there after Lego has played its turn). Other wonders are destroyed already.

quote: 1b. Do we implement a settlement plan of our portion, or just plant cities on resources/luxuries? 1c. calculations for a palace/fp jump feasibility.

it would be so corrupt, that it is not worth it to develop the cities. If we move a fp or palace (a palace move, BTW, could very well mean that Stormia gets less corrupt.... just need to spread out the cities around our palace more), it takes forever to get some factories in there, and without them no production and no development.

We could make it a food country. There is lots of grassland on Legoland, each irrigated (and RRed) grass, gives us one tax man or scientist. Each irr. plain gives us half a tax man. Those are not affected by corruption, so the cities might do us some good. And there is always communism if we want to build stuff, I'm not sure of it's use, but someone will figure out whether it could help.

Legoland is mostly important for its resources. The South might look good, however rubber is on the North... which is the most critical resource we currently need.

quote: 1d. What military presence do we leave on Legoland? Defensive/ cultural frontier fortifications.

Tough question... if we want to have land, we need one cultural building in all cities. Further, we might want to think about settler blitz stoppers, however this goes straight against the food country idea. It might be so that our best bet on defending Legoland, might be to have an offensive fleet near Bob and only a token defense of MIs on Legoland. They attack us on Legoland, we invade Bob.

quote: 1d. Does RP maintain a piece of the land?

I would like that, for various reasons. Defensive certainty on Stormia is one of them. Possible neautrality another. And it gives them something to do.

quote: 2. Long term 2a. What land would we need to capture in addition to Stormia and half of legoland to win the game?

Think Bob. Or all of Legoland, and a large chunk of Bob.

quote: 2b. Space race: continuing the calculations into the feasibility of a one-turn launch.

If we can get 141 spt from one city, we can do this. Would going for manufacturing plants be an option? WoC is our best bet, but that requires at least a palace move there. It can't build a nuke plant, there is no fresh water near.

quote: 2d. Diplomacy with GoW and ND, preparation in case of war between the two.

Interesting point... nothing has been said about that.

quote: 2e. How much land does GoW need in addition to half of legoland and their natural holdings?

With Stormia, and all of Legoland (or at least Lego major, not including Vox), they might very well get there. However, alone they are not going to break us, and in case ND allies against us, they will have to split the gains as well.

quote: 2f. What does ND need to trigger domination?

The same as GoW. Their Bob tiles are roughly the same

DeepO

	18-12-2004 08:06									#6
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If we do put Legos out of the game, then we should be able to hold land with out needing to be concerned about defense.

I mean that we wil not be able to put enough to prevent an attack, but we should not get one anyway. ND or GoW can gain little from attacking any holdings in Lego we have.

They will only be useful for lux and resources. We will have build defenses and units at home and they will need to come there or risk revenge.

Of course the loss of goodies from Lego will hurt, but not stop much. I mean, we will hit them on Lego will we?

So all we need to do is drop cities and put in minimal defenses. RP or Vox are not going to do anything either, unless they want out of the game.

So getting the key tiles is the main thing and after that as much as we can for any resources.

Getting something for RP is great and Vox a piece, why not? We can afford to let GoW have more than their share as long as we get rubber and maybe saltpetter. I would want to be able to make calvs if needed before MA are around. After MA's, we have little need, but calv are not bad to suck up an attack an dprevent a capture in losing.

	18-12-2004 16:23									#7
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I agree on cavs... but we should have thought of that before. We had the perfect excuse to simply ask for both the tech and SP from GoW. Not anymore.

I was thinking, when do you get a domination victory in MP, is it at the end of the turn (so after Lego played), or at the start of your next turn, so you had to hold on to the land for at least 1 turn? Otherwise, one of our best defenses might be to have one fortress city on Legoland, very centrally, and use that to regain at least a portion of what we had if we are under attack (abandoning it after we regain control). If GoW would get the whole of Legoland, they don't need a lot of extra ground on Bob or Stormia for a domination victory.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 02:06									#8
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IIRC, it is at the start of the beginning of the turn ( one full turn holding the teritory).

You've been playing too much RISK.

	19-12-2004 02:31									#9
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I just do not see domination wins, unless someone else gets eliminte from GS/GoW or ND. Even then, a UN victory is more likely. They would only need one solid vassal to vote for them at that point.

IOW Lego is out, someone goes for one of the big three and they are out. Now you have a big two and two also rans. One becomes your buddy and you kill the other.

	19-12-2004 18:37									#10
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If RP were to move completely to Lego, I think we'd need to build a palace in WoC to moke N.Stormia productive. There may be a danger for RP from GoW/ND, though a indication that we are prepared to go to war again for RP could help deter this, as would a close alliance with either GoW or ND.

How about sounding out RP on this - would they be interested in territory on Lego? This could affect our approach to VoX and talks with GoW.

	19-12-2004 18:37									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I just do not see domination wins, unless someone else gets eliminte from GS/GoW or ND. Even then, a UN victory is more likely. They would only need one solid vassal to vote for them at that point. IOW Lego is out, someone goes for one of the big three and they are out. Now you have a big two and two also rans. One becomes your buddy and you kill the other.

Good point.

	19-12-2004 18:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by alva IIRC, it is at the start of the beginning of the turn ( one full turn holding the teritory). You've been playing too much RISK.

I just wondered if it was the same for MP

DeepO

	19-12-2004 18:43									#13
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RP is interested in Lego's territory... but I'm not sure if they want to give up their claims for Estonia.

a WoC palace is probably a deal, CH. If we want to go for SS, that is one of the few options we've got: together with an offshore platform, we should be able to make 141 spt in WoC. For that reason alone a palace move makes sense.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 18:45									#14
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If Vox is to gain land on Lego, that will come from GS and GoW. I think custodian of the Dyes could be appropriate for Vox. If RP gain land, that will come from GS.

So, first GS-GoW agree what, if any, to offer to Vox. What's left is split 50-50 with RP maybe taking some of the GS share.

I think we should consider the most likely areas for Aluminium and Uranium and try to factor that into our claim, also considering contiguity and the rubber.

btw - the rubber would be a good reason for GoW or ND to attack us on Lego - prior to an assault on Stormia.

	19-12-2004 19:05									#15
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One question: what do we gain from Vox gaining land on Lego major? What did they do to earn it? So far, nothing... we could get their free tech, but otherwise there is no reason to give Vox anything new.

RP is different. They were involved in this war, even if they were late. Their ships have been sailing towards Legoland for several turns now, just as long as we've been sailing towards Legoland. It's not their fault this whole thing ended before they could be of use to the alliance. And I'm sure we can make this point to GoW as well.

Dyes: I prefer RP over Vox to hold on to them.

Rubber: we need that resource, and we've got to protect it too. Building a fortress city right on top of it makes sense in my mind... well worth the airport-rush cost.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 19:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO One question: what do we gain from Vox gaining land on Lego major?

Diplo-points. We probably put ND out of the running for the UN, and maybe pre-empt GoW offering Vox land independently.

quote: RP is different. They were involved in this war, even if they were late. Their ships have been sailing towards Legoland for several turns now, just as long as we've been sailing towards Legoland. It's not their fault this whole thing ended before they could be of use to the alliance. And I'm sure we can make this point to GoW as well.

Good point - we could make a claim for RP to get something out of the territorial kitty rather from us. We can them offer them more if we wanted.

quote: Dyes: I prefer RP over Vox to hold on to them.

We could put it to GoW - though they would probably see that idea as too beneficial to GS - unless RP was to be released completely, which we may not want if we are to have a shot at the UN.

quote: Rubber: we need that resource, and we've got to protect it too. Building a fortress city right on top of it makes sense in my mind... well worth the airport-rush cost.

Agreed. Make it very expensive to deprive us of the rubber.

	19-12-2004 19:29									#17
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build a town, rush walls, an aqua, a hospital, and a barracks, sjove 20 MI in there, and another 5 MI on a mountain gaurding a radar tower

That's a lotta gold, pop, and shields...

	19-12-2004 19:44									#18
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You forgot the Civil Defense, Krill.

	19-12-2004 19:46									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I think we should consider the most likely areas for Aluminium and Uranium and try to factor that into our claim, also considering contiguity and the rubber.

Does anyone know off-hand what the territory is for these resources in PTW? Also consider that ex-jungle could hold jungle resources.

	19-12-2004 19:55									#20
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Alu: hills and tundra
Uranium: mountains and forest

(rubber: jungle and forest)

DeepO

	19-12-2004 19:56									#21
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Oh, and I was talking about what Vox could gain for 'us' like in the GoW-GS alliance. What it offers us as GS is obvious.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 20:16									#22
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OK, let's look at the map for possible resource-spots.

	19-12-2004 20:22									#23
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So Castlelea is the most likely mountain-Uranium spot. Forests could have been anywhere north or south of the desert - but probably more chance in the flatter north.

South and West - our more likely areas to claim geographically - are hilly and good prospects for Aluminium.

If we're going for an SS, we only need uranium for 1 turn - as H_E demonstrated against vondrack in that famous PBEM with the doughnut. Aluminium is therefore more important - but we might need a good spread of nuclear deterrent to stay alive that long.

	19-12-2004 20:50									#24
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If we go for a stealth SS, we need uranium beforehand, otherwise we can't finish the SS in 1 turn. But it looks like Stormia has more mountains then Lego... also Vox could become very important here. given their terrain.

If the South doesn't give alu, we can't assume anything anymore. Also, the desert would be nice to have as a backup in case oil runs out.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 23:39									#25
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Well when we get the turn we will know a lot more about what can be done. Right now I still worry about GoW having all of those arts and bombers.

I would like to capture the remaining arts to offset that a bit. If we do make a deal for land, we will need many settlers and workers to get cities down and railed.

A net loss of production, but we will need to be settled quickly. We should end up safe from any culture from Vox though.

	20-12-2004 19:52									#26
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I like the idea of moving RP to Legoland. That would give us direct control over N. Stormia again - which means we cover the defense of that area. As long as RP is there, it's a security risk (it's a security risk period, I guess, but I feel safer if it's under our control).

-Arrian