18-12-2004 18:57									#1
	Atari Technical Support Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have a relative who just started playing Civ3 Conquests (he's rather new to the franchise and computers in general). Anyway, his CD is damaged and it won't allow him to start up Conquests. Knowing him, (he's a messy teenager ) he just stacks all his CDs and DVDs on his desk in his room. Anyway, he asked me for assistance, so I sent this message to Atari tech support.

I have placed Atari's tech support response below. What is wrong with them? In a response to the message below, I offered to mail the old, non-working CD back and pay the shipping cost, no response yet.

I'm going to purchase Alcohol 120% so this situation doesn't happen to me. This was originally a suggestion made by our own vmxa1.

quote: Unfortunately we are unable to provide replacements for media, manuals, playsets or CDKey's unless there is a manufactured defect within the original 90 day warranty from purchase. Lost or damaged media, manuals, playsets or CDKeys are not covered under the warranty and we do not offer paid replacements. When replying please include all previous contacts. Gary / Tech19 Atari Technical Support - North America www.atarisupport.com / www.atari.com -----Original Message----- From: XXXXX@XXXX.XXX [mailto:XXXXX@XXXX.XXX] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:28 PM To: tech1@atari.com Subject: Civilization III - Windows XP : North America : REQUIRED CUSTOMER INFORMATION Name : XXXXXXXX E-mail : XXXXXXXX Birthday : XXXXXXXX Warranty : Out of Warranty Product Name : Civilization III Customer OS : Windows XP Customer Country : United States OPTIONAL CUSTOMER INFORMATION Phone Number : E-mailed Us Before? : no Phoned Us Before? : no Browser & OS : Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041103 Firefox/1.0RC2 IP Address : 141.xxx.xxx.xxx:3589 ISSUE DESCRIPTION My Civ 3 CD is slightly cracked and it doesn't read when starting the game up. Because it's cracked, I can't play the game. Can I get a replacement CD?

	18-12-2004 19:03									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't see why one would expect to receive a free CD just because they were careless with the one they bought...

	18-12-2004 19:06									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

replacement CD at cost. Common practice for most companies.

	18-12-2004 19:12									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Maybe because the company made it very hard for the customer to make a safety copy? A copy that he is allowed to make, you know...

	18-12-2004 19:38									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it or that it wouldn't be a good PR, but if you're going to leave your CDs lying around they're going to get damage. IF a "stupidity warranty" was not bought with the game then there's no valid complaint.

	18-12-2004 20:44									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

And what if that happens due to no fault of the customer? There's always a possibility of not being able to read a CD due to not fault of the customer.

Interesting position to take, punkbass. As I stated before, most companies will replace a CD if you send the broken one back. You might be asked to pay shipping and/or a nominal fee.

	18-12-2004 20:51									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If it's no fault of the customer then the warranty covers it.

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, just that it shouldn't be expected of them. If I were Atari I'd definitely do it just to keep customers happy.

	18-12-2004 21:52									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Incorrect. Read the email response. "only within 90 days"

	18-12-2004 23:05									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I find it difficult to believe that this would occur in more than 90 days and not be the customers fault. 90-day warranties are fairly common for electronics goods; any manufacturer fault will make itself apparent during this time. Otherwise you can expect it to last at least 5 years, which is why they try to sucker you into the 3-year extended warranty, which is almost always useless.

	18-12-2004 23:32									#10
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Maybe because the company made it very hard for the customer to make a safety copy? A copy that he is allowed to make, you know...

Making a safety copy is not hard and all virtual Cd products can do it for the three civIII games.

	19-12-2004 01:00									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

It is actually quite easy to make a backup of Civ3 CDs. I play using an image made with an old version of WinISO. No extra effort was required

	19-12-2004 01:03									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

...however, all these virtual CD products are in fact illegal in the EU.

I would not say a word against Atari's approach if the CD was not copy-protected. But it is and since one is unable to make a backup copy by legal means, then they are, IMO, morally obliged to provide replacement CDs at cost whenever the original fails to function (for whatever reason).

The money paid for the game are not paid for the CD. They are paid for the right to use the software (i.e. for the license). This right is perpetual and shall not be affected in any way by a faulty CD.

We published several copy-protected multimedia titles in my country and this was the approach we took: we used copy-protection (LaserLock) to prevent (to some extent) unauthorized duplication, but always provided a replacement CD upon receiving a non-functional original. That's the only way I consider acceptable to both the publisher and the customer.

	19-12-2004 01:36									#13
	Support Apolyton

What Vondrack said...especially about the license part.

	19-12-2004 01:40									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My guess is that they would charge about what you could find it for on ebay or resale. It won't be 5 buck, it will be more like 15 or 19.99 plus shiping.

Your best bet is to take it back to the store for an exchange.

	19-12-2004 02:23									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Making a safety copy is not hard and all virtual Cd products can do it for the three civIII games.

... if you have the required software, that is. And the knowledge to do so, because a simple copy with any application might not work. As Vondrack said, copy-protection is the issue here. If it wasn't there, I'd accept Atari saying "screw you" (they used more polite words, yes ), but as it is - I don't.

	19-12-2004 02:39									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

If one does not have the tools and the knowledge, they probably know someone that does. As to the laws in a given part of the world, I am sure no one ever ignores them.

	19-12-2004 02:51									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Touche, both times.

Still, there are customers that don't possess the knowledge, and don't know people. If Atari doesn't care, they might "accidently" not buy their next game, but get it somewhere else. You know, from those people one had to meet, to get a copy of his original Civ3 CD. That's how piracy works, if you look all the way...

[EDIT: I know you know. I'm talking to Atari here... ]

	19-12-2004 04:29									#18
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 ...a simple copy with any application might not work...

The fact is that a simple copy does work in this case (maybe not all programs, but enough). Obviously I have no control over the laws, but anyone who is concerned about it can do it with only a few minutes of research.

If a person is unwilling to take a few minutes to read about it and they are careless with their CD, then they've gotten what they deserve. (Obviously that doesn't apply if they don't cause the damage)

Summary:
Unfortunate that Atari does not provide support, but problems are not hard to avoid

	20-12-2004 01:22									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think the only recourse is to take the CD and package back to the store -- any store -- and get a replacement. I don't like their policy - you buy the rights to the software, not the physical recorded device.

	20-12-2004 03:10									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Incorrect. Read the email response. "only within 90 days"

How would a physical defect in the CD only manifest itself after three months?

	20-12-2004 21:05									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I can see both side of the issue here.

It is true that the money paid to Atari is primarily for the software usage license, not the physical media. CDs are so dang cheap that the media cost shouldn't even be a consideration.

However on Atari's side they need to put some limit on replacement CDs. If you break one every week for 3 years, Atari's customer service plus shipping & handling costs far exceed the original price. Also, at some point Atari will simply stop making Civ3 CDs altogether and as such it will one day become cost prohibitive to produce a single CD.

	20-12-2004 21:14									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think one replacement should be provided (after the original is mailed in) free of cost. This needs to be built into their pricing structure. This would account for defective media, etc. After that the customer should be able to break it as many times as they want and get it replaced at their own expense. That would mean the price for shipping and handling both ways and the price of the media. Using CD envelopes and such that should be no more than $10, as anything more would be gratuitous profit for the company. Any less would be an expense--it should be neither.

All it takes is for people on both sides to be reasonable.



Edit- I mean the first replacement to be no questions asked. Defective media? Fine. Spilled acid on it? Fine. Used it for a frisbee? Fine.

Last edited by Epistax on 20-12-2004 at 21:20

	20-12-2004 23:22									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How would a physical defect in the CD only manifest itself after three months?

That's not the point I have been making in this thread. When buying software, you are buying the rights to use the software within the guidelines established in the licence agreement.

A good company will over assistance when you have difficulty with the mechanisms or mechanics of obtaining and using the software -- especially it's loyal, law abiding, non-pirating customers. Or, at least, they should do so....

	22-12-2004 13:23									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Life's full of 'shoulds' that doesn't happen. :/

	22-12-2004 17:40									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Right! And I made an "ass" out of u and me

	22-12-2004 18:33									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner That's not the point I have been making in this thread. When buying software, you are buying the rights to use the software within the guidelines established in the licence agreement.

And one of the terms of the agreement probably insists that you have the media present. Atari is not responsible for you losing or breaking the media. It would be akin to you breaking or losing your cable or satellite box and expecting the company to provide you with a new one. However, in this case the replacement cost is so trivial that they should just be nice and do it.

quote: A good company will over assistance when you have difficulty with the mechanisms or mechanics of obtaining and using the software -- especially it's loyal, law abiding, non-pirating customers. Or, at least, they should do so....

Excellent point. Although they are clearly within their rights, they have tarnished their reputation in the process. They'll never get another gpt deal from me...

Part of why they get away with this is that they know their market is so beholden to them, that they figure you'll probably go out and buy the next big game anyway. I don't mean you personally. It's their market, i.e. adolescent and young men who, for the most part, are not a demographic known for boycotts or delaying gratification.

	22-12-2004 20:43									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

and these companies wonder why their is a prolification of "illegal" copying, hacks, etc.

Your point about the "trival" level of the replacement is exactly what bothers me about this situation.