19-12-2004 00:48									#1
	PBEM Mod: Naval Combat Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In a PBEM, naval combat or even naval maneuvers of any sort are very rare, much more so than in SP.

In this general thread, we should discuss why this is, if it's a problem, and if it is a problem, what we can or should do about it.

Reasons why:
- Pangea effect: Most PBEMs, to speed up contact and combat (not to mention the game), are played on Pangeas.
- Poor naval options pre-Industrial: The Frigate is the first combat ship, and it comes at the very end of the medieval era. Most PBEMs are nearly over or over by this point.
- Lack of amphibious options: If you're playing the Vikings, you're going to go naval. Anyone else, probably not. There's no incentive to attack from the water, unless it's to avoid land.
- Ships sink: Until Astronomy, you generally can't take ships out into the water anyway - and more so until Astronomy - unless you're seafaring or have the lighthouse, so it's unlikely to have naval combat pre-astronomy anyway.

Possibilities to fix:
1. Pangea effect - probably can't fix that, since it's a preference, except to make naval games more fun.
2. Naval options - Add one or more 'offensive' naval units, or strengthen current units. The problem here is that galleys/caravels are essentially warriors/spearmen on the water; there's no swordsman or even an archer until Magnetism ... but here we're adding units, which is a big change ...
3. Amphibious options - modify one or more earlier units to have the Amphibious flag. Possibly the Longbowman, which would exist roughly at the same time as astronomy, or even the Archer; or add an amhibious unit (more realistic, anyhow) at Astronomy, or earlier. Again, a big change.
4. Unless you move the sea travelling up, the only way to work this is to create a small wonder to function like the Great Lighthouse. Not necessarily a bad option...

These changes may or may not be appropriate for the "stock" PBEM mod, but might be worth looking into for a "Fun PBEM Mod" or something like that - one with more changes, not as many as RaR etc. but with some additions to enhance gameplay.

	19-12-2004 09:21									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The jury is out for me whether this is a problem or not. Even on pangaeas, once I have Alphabet and a coastal city, a curragh will soon be sent out as it is the most effective unit available at this stage besides a true explorer. For Archipelago games, naval utility is a given.

I'm playing my first continent PBEM currently and almost to the point where I will find out how useful ships are going to be...

	19-12-2004 09:56									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Making a few naval units, sure - but how often have you had any degree of naval combat or transport-based invasions in a PBEM? I have never had either to any significant degree except in, well, "Naval PBEM", a specific mod with that intent ...

Like I said though, this may not fall into the category of "problem" but rather "enhancement"...

	01-01-2005 22:50									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I wonder how necessary Maval combat is, even. IF people want a Pangaea, they probably are not going to do a lot of naval venturing. As R2D mentioned, there will be exploration boats, but what else do you really need? In short, why should there be more advantages/reasons to use a navy. In terms of fairly large, ocean-going boats, it really isn't useful unless you're playing a map which happens to have something comparable to the RW Mediterranean. Otherwise, I think its abstracted quite nicely. Most naval needs were sufficed by rivers, and this is represented by extra Commerce around rivers. It took competition, poor living conditions and host of other compelling iniitatives to get Europeans out of Europe. VOyages to the New World wouldn't come back for more than a year, if at all. Much like Galley's encourage, most naval exploration was only achived by staying near coast or making short naval jumps from one island to the next, like the Vikings. The Chinese discovered Africa simply because they followed the coast; they never found Australia, which was much closer. In fact, if anything, I would be inclined to restrict naval exploration in ways similar to the AU mod. I think you should at least need MM/Galleys to have a chance at crossing Ocean. May be with strict limits on naval units(Curraghs only on coast, ever, Galleys cannot enter Ocean) you could have early naval warships. They would need to be expensive, slow and vulnerable, IMO. Maybe 2/1/2 for 60 shields.

	04-01-2005 07:34									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Oh, I'm not going for realism or anything like that. I think that many people would enjoy a naval game because it's an added element of interest. As I said, it might be better off for a future mod of "interesting things" rather than "balance fixes" ... but one of the things that makes this game relatively boring in one sense is that there's pretty much one way to play the military: Build swordsmen and archers, walk over, kill cities. Build Cavalry, walk over, kill cities. Build Tanks, walk over, kill cities. Adding an element of naval warfare that's useful would make it a bit more interesting and add additional strategic options imho ...