19-12-2004 00:52									#1
	PBEM Mod: Small Wonders, Big Wonders Got spare money?

GF brought up a relevant point: Are there Great Wonders that might be worth creating small wonder equivalents (or just changing to small status) to allow all civs to have them rather than just one?

I'm not sure I have any specific suggestions, other than possibly Pyramids, ToA, GW, and Sun Tzu - the "a blank in every city" wonders - or some of the science or commerce wonders (colossus, copernicus, newton, etc.) ... hopefully GF can post and clarify what he meant

The point, anyway, is to balance the game by decreasing the value of certain wonders by giving them to all players rather than just one. Some wonders are unbalancing in that whomever gets them first has a large advantage - Pyramids, for example, might be a great example.

(There is going to be, of course, a second thread for SoZ.)

	01-01-2005 22:57									#2
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I think if they were SW wonders, their shields cost would have to increase dramatically. Pyramids would need to be at least 800 shields. Also, I'm not so convinced getting any of these Wonders is really game-breaking. For one thing, you're investing a lot of shields, and you may not even get the wonder (if they're still GWs). Personnally, I think someone who builds the Pyramids is a rather juicy target that needs to be taken down quickly, before the large upfront payment can pay back dividends. The real problem here, IMO, is SGLs and I vaguely think that maybe they should just be removed for this mod. Nothing is unbalancing like an early SGL that results in the Pyramids in 3000BC.

	03-01-2005 15:54									#3
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This thread is totally pointless. Its your own invested shields.
While you are building the pyramids some might build 13 swordsman or horsemen instead and get your pyramids as well as the rest of your empire. Including the oracle your neighbor just finished.

	03-01-2005 23:17									#4
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SGL's are the real problem, there should be no way to rush a great wonder, it is that which can break the game.

	04-01-2005 07:13									#5
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Chrush, that's not the sort of comment we're looking for, at least not the first part. There is no such thing as a pointless comment.

The point of any of these changes, is that the relative value of some things exceeds that of their shield cost. Certainly some wonders - like the Statue of Zeus in its current form - are far more valuable than their cost, and unbalance the game in its MP form (if not SP as well). It's obviously up for debate if there are any other wonders that are similar ...

	04-01-2005 07:24									#6
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SGLs: I'd rather not eliminate them in a mod, as it's a game-time option. The point of the mod is to make changes that you can't make at game time; if you think SGLs unbalance things (like they do, imho) then just click off the box indicating their existence Unless you think we should just convert them to MGL abilities?

Punkbass: The reason I saw this as valuable, was that the Pyramids and other similar wonders do just what you describe: make the builder an immediate target. I know of several games where building the Pyramids or the GL was essentially suicide on the builder's part.

I'd rather there not be builds (SoZ as the prime example) that are suicidal, and thus not undertaken by anyone but either a player all alone on an island, or someone with a rock-solid ally, or someone ... suicidal or too new to know better.

My idea after hearing this suggestion was that a weakened form of some of these wonders would be available, or weaken them by making them available to all. I'd not make the pyramids 800 shields - probably 400 or 500 i'd guess. The point is that you couldn't gain the huge advantage of them by building them first - in a sense they'd be just another build you undertake, eventually. (500 shields versus what, 30 per granary? That's almost 20 granaries - only advantage is it shows up from the start of the city. Probably worth building, but if everyone gets it not worth that much. Another option, rather than making it a SW, would be to up its value ...

I'm not sure if it's possible for wonders like that. Copernicus or similar might be easier to do - but that's a pretty late wonder anyhow...

	04-01-2005 09:50									#7
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Uh, the Pyramids are already 400 shields and Granaries are 60 shields. Also, though a shield is a shield, a shield in your capital is not a shield in a far-out city. As most PBEMs are not larger than Small, this can easily be a second ring city that would take, say, 30 turns to build a Granary, where as the capital might only take 25 to put a Granary in every city. Also, outlying cities (due to aforementioned corruption) are often only useful because they can produce population without said corruption, allowing pop-rushing or Worker training, etc. Having insta-granaries is a huge advantage. There needs to be something to offset these advantages. As a GW, it's both expensive and not a sure thing. As a SW without shield increase you may as well just remove the Pyramids from the game, as everyone will have it, thus removing any advantage it may gain and making not building it a great penalty. It would also give great advantage to civs starting with Masonry.

EDIT: Oh, and making it a SW would make it rushable by a lowly MGL.

	04-01-2005 17:08									#8
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Hmm, you're right, i was playing an Ag civ most recently and got the shield count wrong. 400 for the pyramids I am well aware of - the point of making it a SW, to me, was to weaken it by letting anyone get it. As I said before, perhaps the pyramids are a bad example, as they're very powerful - but the problem I had was simply that the wonder seems - at least according to the players who bum-rush the Pyramids builders as soon as they build it - to have an imbalancing affect on the game... The only ways to re-balance something like that is to either give it to everyone, or make it more expensive/harder to make. I was simply putting forth one of the possibilities...

	04-01-2005 18:53									#9
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Agr civs don't get half-price Granaries.