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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:16
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I know it is a tough time in the game for some, but the public forum is the public forum. I, for one, would prefer if the Glory of News stayed public. I would like to hear from some others, and in particular some Legolanders, on this.
My point is that this is a demo game. The public forum, the discussion, the debate, and yes, even the emotion, are an integral part of the game. If we get to the point where absolute political correctness, and censorship rule the day, then we don't have a public forum. and we don't have a demo game. I am sure that this was not anyone's intent.
Emotions have run a bit high lately. I can relate. And MZ may be be over-reacting to Lego's reaction to recent editions. My recommendation is for the Glory of News to take the next edition and concentrate on cooking, the gossip column, sports, an article or two on duplicate bridge, and maybe some classified ads. Then on the next edition, they can get back to their regular soft-core war reporting.
But that is just one old Immortal's opinion. What's yours?
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:16
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I don't think I'm overreacting, I understand the last thing Lego wants is to read even humorous accounts of this war. I try to put myself in their shoes and feel that it very well could sound like it's poking fun out of something serious.
Given what happened in the last war, the last thing I want is to - even indirectly - generate some resentment or bad vibes between anyone. Ultimately this game is played to have fun, just like my writing of these articles is to add humor to it all. After 2 years however, this game has turned into something a bit more than "just for fun" for some of us, myself included. Therefore the complaints, even if coming from just one person, are entirely justified.
I do not want to stop writing the Glory of News and I won't. Nor do I want to change its focus to something other than that for which it was made for: war reporting. Had GoW and GS needed to retreat from Legoland with our tails between our legs you can bet I would written something funny about it. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre.
So, I leave it up to you people, I don't mind having to send the GoN by mail to those who want it or post it here in public, but rest assured that until the last bullet is spent in this conflict, my pen will still have ink. 
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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This is only my personal opinion/stance, nothing official...
The game is over for me (ZargonX has taken over as the primary player for Lego for the remaining few turns) and, honestly, I care little about it now. For reasons I am not going to elaborate on again, the whole thing feels very absurd to me... I'd prefer quietly forgetting of how easily, quickly, and unnecessarily hundreds and hundreds of hours spent playing PtWDG went down the drain.
No complaints, not blaming anyone (but myself), just expressing how I feel about it now.
So, I do not care about GoN being posted in public or not. I will probably just not read whatever gets posted, since what may sound funny and entertaining to others, only reminds me painfully of the whole affair.
P.S.: Thanks, MZ, appreciated.  You are very much right that "just for fun" evolved into something more - if for nothing else, then simply because of the sheer amount of time spent on the game.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
I don't think I'm overreacting, I understand the last thing Lego wants is to read even humorous accounts of this war. I try to put myself in their shoes and feel that it very well could sound like it's poking fun out of something serious.
Given what happened in the last war, the last thing I want is to - even indirectly - generate some resentment or bad vibes between anyone. Ultimately this game is played to have fun, just like my writing of these articles is to add humor to it all. After 2 years however, this game has turned into something a bit more than "just for fun" for some of us, myself included. Therefore the complaints, even if coming from just one person, are entirely justified.
I do not want to stop writing the Glory of News and I won't. Nor do I want to change its focus to something other than that for which it was made for: war reporting. Had GoW and GS needed to retreat from Legoland with our tails between our legs you can bet I would written something funny about it. C'est la vie, c'est la guerre.
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MZ - well said - and you are right - my comment about you over-reacting was definitely an over-reaction. 
It would also seem that folks are in favour of keeping the paper public.
But MZ, you have now raised another, and possibly more serious issue. An issue which really only applies to your team. In your refusal to deviate from war reporting... your reluctance to print even a single cooking or duplicate bridge article ... you have shown just how insecure your team is. Maybe it is the bearded-woman heritage (that would be enough to do it for me). I'm not sure what has caused it.
So, prove your teams masculinity is in tact. Have some quiche and a cup of herbal tea, and maybe watch an episode of 'Sex in the City'.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Vondrack,
It truely saddens me to read your post.
Although I know exactly what you are saying.
However, you are wrong to blame yourself.
Blame the map generator. Nothing else.
It made Lego the target.
It doomed your civ from turn 1.
It would of taken a monumental effort to try and win a democracy game with that much allocated territory at the start. Especially when you are playing against entire teams who contain some of the most elite civ players .
I avoid PBEM's (demos & singles) due to your exact comments. Too much time is needed for a result that is probably decided before the game starts, by the map generator. |
Hi, H_E! 
Just to make sure my previous post is not misunderstood... what I am blaming myself for is not losing this game or this war - even if we hadn't missed what cost us everything this turn, blocked Q.M. 4 with all ships available, and prevented GS/GoW from breaking out of the landing beaches, it was far from guaranteed we'd survive the combined attack. Definitely not in the long run.
What I, however, am holding against myself is that I foolishly put so much effort into a game so easy to lose - because of our memorable DoN game , I knew very well how difficult it was to fight combat settlers. I knew the first breach of our defense line equalled our end.
That's all I blame myself for... the time spent so unwisely on something this risky. Ironically, when we discussed this in our private forum, Tiberius made a comment that made my mood even more grim... he asked a simple question (it's not an exact quote, but the meaning is kept intact, I believe):
"And if we won... would it feel much different? Would the time look better spent?"
He was right... 
I let the game get too deep under my skin. I need some time to let the emotions and feelings wear off.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Heya Von, I have to disagree in one big thing: it was not unnecessary. |
Oops, sorry, I did not express myself properly - I meant evitable, rather than unnecessary, speaking about our demise, about the very way we were killed. As in: leave those three dam' ships outside Q.M. and live to see another turn, live to fight on.
As for whether it was worth it or not... DeepO, MZ, and other turnplayers must know, but others may not have a good idea. There's a difference between what a turnplayer invests/spends on the game and what other team members invest/spend on it - not because they'd be lazy or sucked , but because you need someone to stitch all ideas together, drafting one coherent plan to follow. In peace times, for a totally average turn , it was like 3 hrs planning and at least 3 more hrs playing the turn and doing the reports (if you remember ISDG reports, Lego had those all the time, up until the last turn). Once the war started, though, it was like 24hr NET time to have the turn discussed, organized, played, and reported. Multiply that by 240+ turns, add few hundred more hours for turns that were not quite average... and you get to a totally insane amount of time.
The perspective is a wee bit different from the turnplayer PoV...
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:16
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quote:
a totally insane amount of time
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Yes.
It's probably better to have spent it on a DG than watching trash TV though, which is what many people do with their time.
As an exercise in analysis, calculation, diplomacy, strategy, tactics, statistics, teamwork, sacrifice, commitment and human relations, not much can come close.
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Krill
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On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:16
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The only thing that one could complain about is that the people that you talk to every day of your life will never know the amount of time that you put into it, although this also applies to Civ as a whole anyway. I've only spent 2 years playing C3 anyway, but since those two years were the two years I should have been working for my GCSEs, which I fvked up badly, I am already starting to look at (/Edit: Read as undertstand) Vondracks PoV.
So while I'm here, I'm going to have as much fun, gain as many friends, and learn, as much as is humanly possible. I've already learned to be more friendly and social, so surely the rest of you have already learn't something that pertains to RL?
Last edited by Krill on 21-12-2004 at 04:04
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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It does take a ridiculous amount of time to be a turnplayer, without any question. While building, I didn't need 3 hours for a turn (somewhere between 1 and 1.5), but during war it's just too much. And still, I enjoyed it, and it was worth it. I'd do it again any time...
Does it matter if this war was won or lost by us? Probably, yes. Although even if we would have lost, if we never would have gotten farther than that 1 city we settled, I still think the effort was worth it. Sure, you always learn new things, but seriously, who needs to learn really new civ 3 things when the next game is coming, everybody is already an expert. That's not the goal... it's the team interaction in the first place, and the outerteam interaction in the second place which counts for me. And that doesn't depend on winning or losing, at least not for me.
DeepO
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
That's all I blame myself for... the time spent so unwisely on something this risky. Ironically, when we discussed this in our private forum, Tiberius made a comment that made my mood even more grim... he asked a simple question (it's not an exact quote, but the meaning is kept intact, I believe):
"And if we won... would it feel much different? Would the time look better spent?"
He was right...
I let the game get too deep under my skin. I need some time to let the emotions and feelings wear off. |
I can certainly see where you are coming from, but you know what is coming, don't you?
Yes, a sappy moment! And you''ll like it!
quote:
And thus it's always been
That question pondered down the ages
By simple men with simple ways
To wise and ancient sages....
How sweet then, quietly knowing
Reaching destination fair:
"It's the journey that's important,
Not the getting there!" |
I hope you can come to see that the time spent was positive in the end, vonD.
Take care.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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This thread reminds me, in a great way, of the biggest plus of all this... about all of you I got to know through this game and through ISDG. My fellow Legos and all those great people from other teams... even though this combined effort to make vonD feel better is still failing (since vonD always knows better, so when he says the insane amount of time was wasted, it was wasted, end of story ), it does remind me of the bright side.
Krill is right - I have learned quite a bit about human interaction. This whole Apolyton thing is a great way to improve one's ways of communicating (and, for a non-native speaker like me, to improve one's English). Especially for a guy that rarely leaves his desk and office...
As for the "journey important" thing... well... one of the thing I regret maybe most is that after learning so much about Civ3, I don't really feel like playing it again. I came to hate so many tricks (ab)used on the elite level, yet playing without them, I would feel like trying to run with my legs tied... it's difficult to explain... in a way, I was having much more fun with the game when I was struggling to beat Regent...
Well, let's hope CIV will have fewer loopholes to (ab)use...
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
one of the thing I regret maybe most is that after learning so much about Civ3, I don't really feel like playing it again. I came to hate so many tricks (ab)used on the elite level, yet playing without them, I would feel like trying to run with my legs tied... it's difficult to explain... in a way, I was having much more fun with the game when I was struggling to beat Regent... |
In a way this is true, however playing SP games is very different from PBEM. There, you've got the choice... sometimes you choose for a warmonging game, sometimes for a pure builder game, and you are free to do what you like. I'm sure that every turnplayer in here can always beat the SP game on Emperor, and most will beat the deity AIs in many if not most situations. But deity is not fun either... too many tricks. Just stepping back one level below what you can beat, makes the game interesting again, as you know where the dirty tricks are, and you can choose to not use them. Civing becomes a bit of art... something like building a model train with railroads. It has no real challenge in that it is very difficult, it's just fun to play.
PBEM is different. You can't stay clear from the tricks of the game. When you're playing against humans you can't help but want to do your best, and show your intellect. You can't play the game for the beauty of it.
DeepO
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:16
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Great thread.
But I do feel like I need to come to civ3's defence. She ain't perfect, I agree, But she is our game, and I for one love her.
It sort of reminds me of my sailing buddies and me sitting around drinking and talking about the perfect sailboat. Which of course, doesn't exist. But a really great sailing trip does.
So, it may be stating the obvious, but there is no perfect sailboat; for that matter, no perfect woman. So it goes without saying that there is no perfect game (other than maybe Chess and Go, where there is no random start, a set of clear rules, and no luck elements.)
That being said, I love civ. Yes, as nye and others have pointed out, I loved her when I was first learning the game - playing on regent as the Greeks - and studying Vel and some nob (that's nob - not noob), named rpodos.
And I really loved her when Vox started up, and went down in flames. And I loved her when the demogame won via the UN vote. And I love her when Monkey is getting run over by the transvestites and masters of funny walks. Ad they will get zip - other than pain.
And I love her in my 40 pbem games. Yes 40. Of all different sorts and civs. I love her in all her great ways, and her foibles, which are numerous and well documented. She ain't perfect - but she is my game. And I for one love her. So there ...
(That being said, will all of you civ4 playtesters make sure her off-spring is even a little more perfect.  )
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20-12-2004 08:23
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