23-12-2004 00:02									#121
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Old people die, thats what they do. If your heart fails at 75, that is the world telling you something and I feel no need to pay for people who are grasping for imortality. Now if they want to pay, fine.

	23-12-2004 00:22									#122
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Yes, people do die. We should really get rid of emergency rooms,. cause its a sign from God, if you got into a traffic accident, that he wants you dead. Enough of this silly "medical care"

In fact, all of medicine is nothing more than grasping for immortality. lets get rid of it.

	23-12-2004 00:26									#123
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quote: Originally posted by GePap In fact, all of medicine is nothing more than grasping for immortality. lets get rid of it.

Except for those who want to pay, of course.

	23-12-2004 00:27									#124
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, people do die. We should really get rid of emergency rooms,. cause its a sign from God, if you got into a traffic accident, that he wants you dead. Enough of this silly "medical care" In fact, all of medicine is nothing more than grasping for immortality. lets get rid of it.

I'd rather money be spent on something like education, or healthcare for a young, otherwise healthy person, than on extending some 90-year-old's life six months.

	23-12-2004 00:32									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I'd rather money be spent on something like education, or healthcare for a young, otherwise healthy person, than on extending some 90-year-old's life six months.

What if you were that 90 year old

It's so nice to know that you think young people are more deserving of help than older people... When you get older, I'm sure your view on things will change

	23-12-2004 00:34									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What if you were that 90 year old It's so nice to know that you think young people are more deserving of help than older people... When you get older, I'm sure your view on things will change

Education is an investment that gives a return. An emergency room that saves a young person's life has just prevented the loss of another taxpayer. Money spent extending the life of the 90-year-old goes into a black hole, never to be seen again.

	23-12-2004 00:35									#127
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Wait until you get older

	23-12-2004 00:37									#128
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Doesn't make anything I say more or less true. Money spent on things like education pays itself back.

	23-12-2004 00:39									#129
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quote: Insurance only works when there is a small chance that the insured will need a payout. With medicare, the chance is almost 100%.

No. Almost everyone will need some medical care, they just don't know how much. It is exactly the same as many other forms of insurance. For example, most people will have a car accident in their lifetimes, they don't know when or how costly it will be.

@ Kuci - that's a pretty disgusting attitude. Just because Ming is like 200 years old, doesn't mean his welfare doesn't matter.

	23-12-2004 00:41									#130
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Whether old or young, there are not enogh resources to provide everything that everyone wants. At some point, we will have to make a choice about priorities. I think that all groups must participate in this choice equally.

	23-12-2004 00:42									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Doesn't make anything I say more or less true. Money spent on things like education pays itself back.

Not always... students could commit suicide, die of aids, or fraternity hazings... turn into drug addicts... join a gang and die at an early age in a drive by... or the person may just be stupid and end up working at Walmart for the rest of their lives... Which of these will describe you

A younger person's life is worth no more than an older persons life. If you truely think so, then you must be either a bigot or a Nazi

*gee... I get to use both the bigot and nazi defenses in the same line

	23-12-2004 00:43									#132
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It certainly matters less, by your values. Assuming everyone's welfare is equally value normally, then if increasing one person's welfare ALSO increases anothers' welfare, then that one person's welfare is more valuable.

	23-12-2004 00:43									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. Almost everyone will need some medical care, they just don't know how much. It is exactly the same as many other forms of insurance. For example, most people will have a car accident in their lifetimes, they don't know when or how costly it will be.

The older you get, the more likely you will need a payout and the more likely that payout will be big. Same for car insurance. That is why insurance rates for old people are high and why we start restricting licenses for old people.

	23-12-2004 00:46									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ming A younger person's life is worth no more than an older persons life. If you truely think so, then you must be either a bigot or a Nazi

I'm inclined to agree with you, but in a lifeboat survival situation where you needed to get rid of one of them . . . it's still be a hard choice.

	23-12-2004 00:46									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Not always... students could commit suicide, die of aids, or fraternity hazings... turn into drug addicts... join a gang and die at an early age in a drive by... or the person may just be stupid and end up working at Walmart for the rest of their lives... Which of these will describe you

Or a young person can be a productive member of society - which you need to pay for the healthcare on your 90-year-old person. A 90-year-old won't end up providing such a return on investment. Once spent, the money doesn't come back.

quote: A younger person's life is worth no more than an older persons life. If you truely think so, then you must be either a bigot or a Nazi

When a younger person's life, through continuing, ends up increasing the number of lives you can save, then yes, it IS more valuable.

	23-12-2004 00:48									#136
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Or.. that younger person could be a serial killer or drug pusher... and in the long run, kill or harm more people that the 90 year old who develops a cure for a disease

	23-12-2004 00:49									#137
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm inclined to agree with you, but in a lifeboat survival situation where you needed to get rid of one of them . . . it's still be a hard choice.

1) if the younger person will live longer, then you save the younger person because there's more life you'll be saving. And take it to the extreme case - if the older person has cancer and will die the next day, and the young person is healthy and will live for decades, which do you save? The young person.

2) If, by saving the younger person (who's strong, etc.) you are then able to save MORE people (because of his help), then you save the younger person.

	23-12-2004 00:50									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Or.. that younger person could be a serial killer or drug pusher... and in the long run, kill or harm more people that the 90 year old who develops a cure for a disease

What do you think is most likely, Ming? If I post this, you MAY go into a rage and kill people, but it doesn't mean that possibility should factor prominently in my decision whether to post this.

And this cinches it: which society is preferable, 1000 90-year-olds or 1000 20-year-olds?

	23-12-2004 00:52									#139
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wow ming has been missing the boat lately on a lot of issues. i think hes slowing down.

	23-12-2004 00:58									#140
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That's cuz he's old and we threw him overboard to keep Kuci.

	23-12-2004 01:03									#141
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quote: And this cinches it: which society is preferable, 1000 90-year-olds or 1000 20-year-olds?

What does that have to do with value? If your goal is to ring someone out for money than I would rather have the 1000 90-year olds, preferably those who are hooked on slot tournies.

I think, somewhere within the argument of young vs. old the real argument was lost. Young people may have more to offer society in terms of the years ahead of them, and yes that does have SOME value. However, that is not value that can be realized, especially since it is all potential. Older ppl intrinsically have more real value, in general, than do younger ppl (in terms of wealth). And from the looks of todays youth, this isn't going to change any time soon.

quote: Money spent extending the life of the 90-year-old goes into a black hole, never to be seen again.

What if money is spent extending the life of many 90 year-olds such that the average life span increases to 110 instead of what 70, like today? Would ppl still retire at 59? Would we need to start paying out SS at 64, or could we push back that date? What value do we get out of saving the live of 20 year olds beyond their future potential?

Which is more valuable; old or young? Neither. Each has their own worth. It's like buying a one of a kind painting vs. a one of a kind statue.

	23-12-2004 01:09									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Japher What does that have to do with value? If your goal is to ring someone out for money than I would rather have the 1000 90-year olds, preferably those who are hooked on slot tournies.

I meant a society composed ENTIRELY of 1000 90-year-olds. It simply would die out in much less than a year.

quote: I think, somewhere within the argument of young vs. old the real argument was lost. Young people may have more to offer society in terms of the years ahead of them, and yes that does have SOME value. However, that is not value that can be realized, especially since it is all potential. Older ppl intrinsically have more real value, in general, than do younger ppl (in terms of wealth). And from the looks of todays youth, this isn't going to change any time soon.

Hm?

Most of the potential of younger people is realized. Older people (who have retired) have no value beyond the intrinsic value of human life. Their wealth doesn't disappear when they die. A young person's potential labor does.

	23-12-2004 01:11									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's cuz he's old and we threw him overboard to keep Kuci.

How could we be that stupid?

	23-12-2004 01:14									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia wow ming has been missing the boat lately on a lot of issues. i think hes slowing down.

I think it's others that are missing the boat with their broad sweeping generalizations...

The ole argument that young people are more valuable than old people is just pure crap, and discrimination at it's worst.

The point I'm trying to make is that an individuals worth to society should be judged on an individual basis, and not based solely on something like age. Again, a 90 year old doctor who is working on research is far more valuable than some 20 year old gang banger who will only hurt other people and probably be dead before he turns 21. Which would you prefer... 1000 20 year old gang bangers high on drugs shooting up the community or 1000 90 year old researchers working to better humanity... You make the call

	23-12-2004 01:19									#146
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quote: The point I'm trying to make is that an individuals worth to society should be judged on an individual basis, and not based solely on something like age. Again, a 90 year old doctor who is working on research is far more valuable than some 20 year old gang banger who will only hurt other people and probably be dead before he turns 21. Which would you prefer... 1000 20 year old gang bangers high on drugs shooting up the community or 1000 90 year old researchers working to better humanity... You make the call

If you have the resources to discriminate individually without actually decreasing the effectiveness of what you're doing (by using up some of those resources), then of course you should do so.

	23-12-2004 02:47									#147
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This isn't a lifeboat choice.

We live in the most productive era in history. We can easily afford to keep people in reasonable health and ensure them a decent retirement income until they die.

The idea that we suddenly can't afford it is just false. If we remove funding for welfare programs, then individuals will be left to prop up their elderly parents, which will annoy the hell out of them and their elderly parents.

The real problem is, as usual, that people want to have their cake and eat it too. It's not as if there is a lack of wealth in our society, it's that people would like to spend theirs on consumer goods and hope that someone else pays for the upkeep of the elderly.

Welfare programs are cheaper for the vast majority of people than taking care of their parents themselves. They give older people the dignity of their own income, which they have paid for by their lifetime's work.

If you want to replace this with private retirement schemes, then go ahead; but we will end up paying a lot more individually down the road when grandma gets thrown out of her apartment and turns up at your house.

What are you going to do? Tell her to piss off?

	23-12-2004 02:52									#148
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quote: The point I'm trying to make is that an individuals worth to society should be judged on an individual basis, and not based solely on something like age. Again, a 90 year old doctor who is working on research is far more valuable than some 20 year old gang banger who will only hurt other people and probably be dead before he turns 21. Which would you prefer... 1000 20 year old gang bangers high on drugs shooting up the community or 1000 90 year old researchers working to better humanity... You make the call

first of all, there is nothing wrong with taking drugs. they should be legal, so your negative look at shootter uppers is wrong.
now, i dont know any 90 year old doctors working on research. do you? now, can you really find 1000 90 year old doctors working on research? and even if you could, there would be no way to apply it, since they would all be dead in 5 years anways.

since taking drugs doesnt mean instant death, your homie gangbangers would survive longer, and thus would be better off than your 90 year old research doctor who i dont even think exists.

	23-12-2004 02:54									#149
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Damn right. Hit the bricks, ya old bag!



EDIT: re Aggie's last line.

	23-12-2004 02:58									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Again, a 90 year old doctor who is working on research is far more valuable than some 20 year old gang banger who will only hurt other people and probably be dead before he turns 21. Which would you prefer... 1000 20 year old gang bangers high on drugs shooting up the community or 1000 90 year old researchers working to better humanity... You make the call

If I remember right, the great evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr is still alive and he must be pushing 100...