25-12-2004 08:39									#31
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Ok, I have been playin this game for a long time, well not LONG but pretty regularly for a month or so. I have never had a single leader and I am getting pretty pissed about it. What am I missing? How do you get a leader?

	25-12-2004 09:33									#32
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MGL come from elites winning a battle vs another unit other than barbs. It is fairly common for an elite that has won 3 or 4 battles as an elite to generate a leader. Not a sure thing, but I start to feel cheated if one has won more than 4 times and not made a leader.

An SGL comes from being the first to research a given tech. This is something like a 5% chance for non scientific and 6% for them. So it is not hard to not get one in a game. This is even more the case if you are playing at Demi or better, since you will not be first to a lot of techs for the first two ages.

So if you are playing at say emperor and are not doing too well in research, you do not have many chances for an SGL.

If you are not having wars and even if you are and you do not take care with elites, you don't get many MGL's.

	25-12-2004 18:09									#33
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and did i mention ...

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 55 leaders in a CivIII game.

that's impressive

	27-12-2004 08:58									#34
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Your odds for a MGL are 1 in 16 for an offensive elite win, 1 in 32 for a defensive elite win. If you build the Heroic Epic, an offensive elite win gives a 1 in 12 chance, 1 in 24 for an elite defensive win.

Your odds for a SGL are 3% every time you research a tech on your own before anyone else in the game. Techs from huts don't count. Scientific civs have a 5% chance.

	29-12-2004 11:12									#35
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Wow, not that I don't believe you, but where did you find that out? Looking at those numbers, it's hard to believe that in the same game I got 3 scientific leaders in the ancient ages, while at the same time the aztecs had two military leaders. What are the odds...

	29-12-2004 11:22									#36
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He could be counting armies he built with the Academy. That's still impressive, though.

There was one game where I got fourteen (!!!) SGL's in one game. I think it was balanced out, though, by the fact that in the next game (RoR conquest) that I played, I lost three armies to a lone defender.

	29-12-2004 19:14									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Wow, not that I don't believe you, but where did you find that out? Looking at those numbers, it's hard to believe that in the same game I got 3 scientific leaders in the ancient ages, while at the same time the aztecs had two military leaders. What are the odds...

Not sure where I got the numbers, but it's fairly common knowledge. I'm surprised I was the first to post it. If you ask over at CFC you'll probably get the answer with 15 minutes.

BTW, I've had 8 SGLs in a single game, though that was while I was doing fastest 20k experiments with LulThyme and bedhead for the HoF at CFC.

	29-12-2004 22:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by lebensraum and did i mention ... that's impressive

Truth is that is was due to poor playing on my part. These were all from leaders, iirc.

I did not really know what I was doing and I got into war with all the civs. I had large numbers of units spread out in fairly small stacks. Forted on hills and mountains in most case.

So many small groups keep coming for me that it was a long time before I could break out. Very poorly played.

Some of the stuff I used to see in the early games, I miss now. I remember making a choke point city and having civs toss many units against this point. One group of 88 jag warriors still sticks out.

I have had games this year with the AI losing 5 to 7 thousand units and not getting any where near that many leaders. 20 to 30 leaders being about par for a conquest on huge map. Most armies coming from MA.

Of course one reason is that many of the kills come from defensive battle with armies doing most of the killing. The AI will send stacks of 100 or more at my city with many forted armies.

	31-12-2004 00:09									#39
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hey twelve motion
thanks for letting me ride your thread for so long ...

i do enjoy the smell of apple in the morning

i've never really played civ2, so i'm not qualified to comment there, but i had roughly the same experience, got myself independently through to regent, no probs. but i just couldn't get it happening on monarch

over the last coupl'a months i punched through monarch and romped ahead to be pretty comfortable firing up a random deity game. not that i win all (or even most) of the time but i can get far enough to have plenty of laughs
hmm ... this happens to be a time that roughly corresponds to my thoughts first being poisoned with some of the spurious trash to be found on this site ...

while it's been great fun disagreeing with people so far, i should point out that the sort of aggressive research i am recommending will make it quite easy to get ahead at < deity levels
to get anywhere at >= deity level, you certainly need a few more tricks up your sleeve

don't get me wrong - leader farming is always an important skill to have. but in retrospect i guess leaders are kind of overpowered and sooner or later civ4 will make it to the shelves. then we'll both have to stop and learn the basic skills of building a proper empire without the assistance of exploiting suicidal ai feild tactics.

hmmm... how else can i put this ...
#@$&%!% dominae was ##@$ right ... (again)

things that i found made a big difference
- tech extortion
- leader farming
- more workers
- more priority on food (always)
- close city spacing
- focus ... and i can't believe i got this one in before ... the d mentioned it. build only what you need in any given city. set your goals for research - don't try to study everything

on a purely personal note, and i'm sure others will disagree (yay!) i'd say don't set the tech slider so high.
having the tech lead is by no means a necessity. like relying on leader generation, it can be a trap. better to learn how to get by when you are struggling with obsolete troops and snooty neighbours

and ... why worry about the higher levels anyway
beyond emperor things can get very dry and clinical ... better to be a blood-thirsty monarch ...

The humble people of grog do homage ...
...
... ... ... GROG
...

Last edited by lebensraum on 31-12-2004 at 00:46

	31-12-2004 13:56									#40
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Trading is the most important part of any game where there is any intention of gaining and keeping a tech lead. Good early trading will bring you to tech parity before you have learnt 10 techs in the 2nd age. If this is not the case, spend more time contacting civs and trading techs to achieve this. From this point if you choose techs the AI does not choose first and research them at 100%, selling them for gold per turn and luxury resources, you will maintain this lead to the end of the game at Emperor level and below, Deity is different though and not enjoyable to play anyway, so just avoid that level. It is essential you you sell techs to the AI tech leader at all times so that its gold comes to you and is not funding its own research. You stay ahead by slowing the tech leaders research down by making them pay you hundreds of gold per turn in tech trades

	01-01-2005 12:28									#41
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I like that strategy. It's when you're at war under a democracy with 4 civs at the same time who are all more powerful than you that that becomes a challenge, as in my current game in Greece. I worked until I had to start drafting, then war weariness hit, was forced to used the slider, still didn't have fascism or communism, and it went down hill from their. Anyway, truly, it is the only way to stay in the tech lead, unless you are practically the only civ left...

	28-01-2005 05:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Your odds for a MGL are 1 in 16 for an offensive elite win, 1 in 32 for a defensive elite win. If you build the Heroic Epic, an offensive elite win gives a 1 in 12 chance, 1 in 24 for an elite defensive win. Your odds for a SGL are 3% every time you research a tech on your own before anyone else in the game. Techs from huts don't count. Scientific civs have a 5% chance.

I never knew what the odds were, especially for defensive GLs. Do these odds also apply to vanilla civ?

Also, how does playing a military civ change the equation, or does it simply improve the chances of being promoted?

Twelve Motion - building barracks is key to start with veteran units, so that only one promotion is required to enable the probablity process for MGL creation.

I never knew there existed such a thing as SGL. Does this apply to vanilla civ also?

	28-01-2005 05:58									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Shaka II I never knew what the odds were, especially for defensive GLs. Do these odds also apply to vanilla civ?

AFAIK.

quote: Also, how does playing a military civ change the equation, or does it simply improve the chances of being promoted?

It doesn't outside of increasing chances of getting promoted.

quote: Twelve Motion - building barracks is key to start with veteran units, so that only one promotion is required to enable the probablity process for MGL creation.

Quite true, though I would say that the "key" is farming barbs properly to get Elites and then using those Elites properly to kill enemy units.

quote: I never knew there existed such a thing as SGL. Does this apply to vanilla civ also?

No, it doesn't. They are a C3C addition.

	29-01-2005 05:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Quite true, though I would say that the "key" is farming barbs properly to get Elites and then using those Elites properly to kill enemy units.

Yes, I have learned these tactics pretty well, but am still a bit reluctant to use raging barbarian level, though I know it will give me the best "barbarian training".

"Using elites properly" seems like a deep subject. I have read strats here on that, but maybe a brief rehash would be good, especially for Twelve Motion.

My own technique is to save the elites for high probability wins, using veterans to do the heavy lifting, thereby maximizing the chance of success. Is that about right?

Of course, sometimes using veterans results in giving elite status to the enemy, sort of "barbarian training". So, I play it the way I feel is appropriate at the time, sometimes relying on my elites to do the heavy lifting, when I really need to.

	29-01-2005 08:11									#45
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"My own technique is to save the elites for high probability wins, using veterans to do the heavy lifting, thereby maximizing the chance of success. Is that about right? "

Yes, that's about the bulk of it. Assuming you're not in a sticky situation, Elites are for easy wins only.

	29-01-2005 21:55									#46
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That's mostly the right thing to do... if I am fighting an 'uphill' strength battle of fastmovers versus slowmovers (e.g., Horsemen v. Pikes, Knights v. Rifles), and I have a LOT of elites, I will sometimes use my elites to soften up and 4- and 5-hp defenders. Yeah, I'll lose some, but overall I come out ahead.

	30-01-2005 03:47									#47
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dwr ...

order of battle should ideally be
.i) regulars - they get promoted or they die - no biggies
.ii) vets
iii) elites

of course, the Evil One put it far more eloquently, but i - pathetic mortal - i cannot find the link right now

as far as not giving the enemy the chance for promotions though, hmm, tough question

i really don't think it matters,
a) if one or two ai promotions can change the course of battle, i probably won't be attacking anyway
b) if the ai does get lucky, i hope to have enough forces to squish their mgl before they get a chance to use it
c) an mgl is much more dangerous in human hands anyway, so the payoff is worth the risk
e) if it starts looking bad - that #$% conscript spearman is now elite and has already finished off half an armoured division - call a retreat,.. it's time you went outside for a breath of fresh air anyhoo

quote: Of course, sometimes using veterans results in giving elite status to the enemy

i would only consider enemy promotions to be problematic where i'm attacking with regulars or worse.

veterans are pretty much always my heavy lifters - if they can't do the job, it probably can't be done with the forces at hand. elites are the latte-sippers of my army, they just cruise in to claim the glory after most of the real fighting has been done. regulars exist only to get promoted or to die gloriously in battle... and your enemies shall triumph for a day...

(on-topic... sorry)
since this was all about keeping up in science, i should mention (dwr .. )
you seem to be using a lot of veterans...
don't forget that every barracks you build costs you money, and that's money which could be used for research.
there is an art to building the minimum possible number of barracks and progressing your troops right through the ranks from regular to elite
ahh.. violence as a social and economic imperative
there are some reasons why civ is just soo much fun ...
(/on-topic.. won't happen again, promise)

	30-01-2005 04:58									#48
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"a) if one or two ai promotions can change the course of battle, i probably won't be attacking anyway"

You can safely bet that this can be a tremendouse factor. I have seen in few times in my games and in a PBEM game where you have to account for the proper order and avoiding promotions or at least giving them with the proper units.

A battle can come down to that level of detail in some games with only a tiny margin of error. Even considering the soaking up of the free bombardment of units.

	30-01-2005 05:29									#49
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Hi Twelve Motion. In my signature there´s a strategy that might help you out to catch up techwise: ailing civilization strategy. Good luck.

	30-01-2005 18:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 You can safely bet that...

*lebensraum was wrong!
hey, it ain't gonna be the last time

hiya v
ahh, the joy of generalisations..

re: pbems, yeah, that's one reason i mentioned that i think promotions are less of a prob with ai's

re: "i won't be attacking" - that's probably my greatest weakness - i'm far too much of a defensive player - always having to remind myself to get out there and take the initiative

re: order of battle
could you possibly give some examples?
i don't think there's any point in debating absolute rules here, each case will be pretty much unique to itself.
i'd really like to see how you have dealt with one or two specific situations

ps. anybody else have a good anecdotal eg. of adapting the order of battle to cope with enemy promotions??

	30-01-2005 19:00									#51
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heyya drakan
coupla questions for you..

i like the idea of picking up a few cheap techs from an ailing civ, but what happens if that civ doesn't get wiped out?
also, it seems like a very passive tactic to me
from the way i read it, you are relying on finding another civ who is a) at war and b) losing it badly

could be useful occassionally, but can you really set your whole tech strategy on that basis?
salud

ooh, i got promoted!
... must work out that #$% paypal thingy

Last edited by lebensraum on 30-01-2005 at 19:15

	30-01-2005 21:16									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lebensraum ps. anybody else have a good anecdotal eg. of adapting the order of battle to cope with enemy promotions??

Well, I'm sure no one here would actually save before a battle and reload to see if there might be a diffferent outcome, if the sequence were changed.

Not that I would either, but let's take a hypothetical case where we have one elite knight and one veteran knight attacking a small city with one veteran pikeman.

Also let's make a 1st roll probablity that the elite knight will win with one hit point remaining (case 1), while the veteran knight will just barely lose (case 2).

Case1: We have conquered the city, we have preserved both of our units. Time for a little R&R for our hard working elite.

Case 2: We have lost our veteran knight and now our elite knight fights against either a veteran pikeman with one hit point or an elite pikemen with two hit points. The 2nd roll has a much higher probablity of a win, but there is also a significant probablity of loss. The probable outcome is a win while preserving only one of our original units.

So for the close probability case, it would seem to be a better decision of go in with your elites. Of course this does not consider all of the other roll probablitites, trying to promote your army to elites to generate GLs, or what happens over large numbers of rolls.

I am always amazed to see a small city of three or four spearman withstand seemingly impossible odds when defending against a huge stack of conscript barbarian horseman, sometimes raising most of them to elite status by the end of the skirmish, albeit with only one or two hit points remaining.

When you are fighting strong or heavily fortified defenders, this "barbarian training" effect can happen.

	30-01-2005 22:57									#53
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hmm...
thanks s2, i did say anecdotal, not hypothetical

why is this city important to you?
why are you attacking with only two knights against a forted pike?
what is your purpose in taking the city?
where are the rest of your troops?
are you more or less powerful at this point than the other civs?
do endless rhetorical questions give you the screeeeaming heebegeebies?

as the (bw)pop-rushing persian pinko will probably point out, you're already up against it there. attacking troops should outnumber defenders 3 to 1 as a general rule. so there must be some reason for you to be there with just two knights.

you haven't stated the purpose of the conflict, and it sounds like you're making a desperate bid to take a (strategic?) city.
iow... order of battle will necessarily depend on whether you're fighting to secure territory, or fighting to gain some other advantage (eg. leader farming)
if i'm leader farming, i certainly won't send the elite in first against a forted pike

	31-01-2005 00:09									#54
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It is not very common and requires that you have two civs with a battle of similar numbers and types to make it critical.

In this one http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...hreadid=124332, we knew it was very close as to if GoW could take the city of Lego's.

We (GS) ran a number of simulations and found that the order of attacks was the only shot at winning the battle and it would end up with as few as two units to spare.

Soaking up a large number of bombardments was very important as well as limiting the promotions and what units got them.

This I only run into on my Sid games as being very useful. The numbers are large and you need to husband your troops. I suspect that MP games that get late into the industrial age could see this as well. The numbers will be high and the humans will make it so you have to be smart about your use of units.

Anyway I only mentioned it as an FYI.

	31-01-2005 05:22									#55
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nice one v! cheers

@shaka: i take it back.
*lebensraum was not (completely and utterly) wrong

enemy promotions aren't that much different from getting a bad run on the rng. at least that's the way i'd normally think of it esp. in sp games.

consider...
the chances of giving the ai an mgl out of defensive combat is pretty minimal (ok there are times where it might be a risk - but, for those of us who are not total vmxasochists - that's a good time to retreat and regroup)

other than that, the only *major difference between promos and no promos is - how many hit points does the victorious defender have after a combat event?

ergo. enemy gets promoted vs enemy gets away with murder on the rng .. comes to about the same thing

to put it briefly, i just don't sweat it

as to your eg. - points to consider
- how about changing it to
attacking with one reg, one vet, one elite?
- since you're attacking into a city, you don't know whether or not that pike is the only defender
- pike, forted in a city vs knight has a significant advantage in strength. on general probability, you should expect to lose at least one unit (regardless of the battle order)
- you have a point here because, yeah i would think twice before sending the regular in first in this situation
- since i expect to lose a unit in this situation, i'd probably sacrifice the veteran because (a) the regular would be underpowered, simply not up to the task and (b) why risk the elite, better to test the rng waters with a less valuable unit
- whatever the strategic goal, there is surely some other way to achieve it than attempting such a risky venture (you will need at least two units to take out the pike, the ai only has to rush a single warrior and your attack fails)

	31-01-2005 05:40									#56
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quote: Originally posted by lebensraum hmm... thanks s2, i did say anecdotal, not hypothetical why is this city important to you? why are you attacking with only two knights against a forted pike? what is your purpose in taking the city? where are the rest of your troops? are you more or less powerful at this point than the other civs? do endless rhetorical questions give you the screeeeaming heebegeebies?

OK, here is an anecodotal case:

The year is 1285AD, Deity, standard size Pangea, and I am the Iroquois marching on Elephantine, size 12 with 5 veteran rifleman defenders. I have 12 cavalry (9 veterans, 3 elites). I wanted to find a case where I had a more even number, like 5 and 5, but this will do.

I have just captured Memphis containing the Sistene Chapel, so my forces have thinned down a bit, since I need to protect this wonder, especially against culture flipping, as the Egyptians have strong culture.

Back to Elephantine. I save the game and try:

Case 1) Attack with 9 veteran cavalry, followed by 3 elites. I am not successful, losing 5 cavalry and killing 4 riflemen with 1 remaining with 2 hit points. I have an elite knight 2 spaces away and make a last ditch effort to take Elephantine, but the rifleman stands solid.

Case 2) Attack with 3 elite cavalry followed by 9 cavalry. I am successful, losing only 3 cavalry (still retaining 3 elites) and killing all 5 riflemen to capture Elephantine and Newton's University. My elite knight was not necessary and gets to live another day.

I could not easily keep track of enemy rifleman promotions, but there were at least 2. My point is that these promotions, can tip the balance in a close match. A dead rifleman can no longer defend, while a wounded one can, and can be promoted. I have noticed this effect (sequence matters) on numerous occasions, so it is not just my imagination, at least I don't think it is.

	31-01-2005 07:04									#57
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Well, there is another reason I prefer attacking with regular or veteran units first and then elites, though, and that's the retreat factor. I'd rather attack with a veteran cavelry, damage the enemy rifleman and retreat, and then finish off the enemy with my elite, instead of the other way around. Granted that your units don't always retreat, I generally much prefer holding my elties back to finish off weaker or easier battles when possible. Elites are rarer, more valuable, can produce great leaders, and anyway are more cost-efficent to keep around pay the maint. cost for; after a battle is over, I'd much rather have 4 surviving elite units then 5 veteran units, and that's more likely to happen if you save your elites for later in the battle, against wounded or weaker enemy troops.

	01-02-2005 05:15									#58
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I certainly agree about preserving elites by letting them finish the easy fights, thereby maximizing the chance that GLs are produced. And that's the way I normally use them. I'm just saying that sometimes a deviation in sequence may be called for in a dead even match. Of course we never really know how strongly a city is defended, do we?

Sometimes I wait too long before using my elites. The vets steal all the glory.

Here is another probability question for anyone. What is the probability of being promoted for a militaristic and non-militaristic civ? Now that I know the probability of generating a GL, I need the other part to keep in some dark recess of my civ mind.

Also, are there any other conditions than just winning a fight that determines whether a promotion applies? E.g, being wounded (purple star), a heroic battle, etc.

Last edited by Shaka II on 01-02-2005 at 05:24

	01-02-2005 06:42									#59
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iirc the non mil is 1/16 and a mil civ is 1/12, if neither has the HE.

If the non mil has the HE and the mil does not they are both 1/12.

	02-02-2005 02:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 iirc the non mil is 1/16 and a mil civ is 1/12, if neither has the HE. If the non mil has the HE and the mil does not they are both 1/12.

This seems too low for promotion probability. Do you mean MGL probability? See this reply from PunkBass. Also, does HE affect both promotion and MGL probability?

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Your odds for a MGL are 1 in 16 for an offensive elite win, 1 in 32 for a defensive elite win. If you build the Heroic Epic, an offensive elite win gives a 1 in 12 chance, 1 in 24 for an elite defensive win. Your odds for a SGL are 3% every time you research a tech on your own before anyone else in the game. Techs from huts don't count. Scientific civs have a 5% chance.