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Twelve Motion
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I am playing this game on Monarch mostly. I used to play Civ II on Diety, but this game is just different enough that I need to get used to it. One of the things I have noticed is, I can't ever seem to get ahead in science. In Civ II once I got the ball rolling, I was WAY ahead in science if I had libraries and universities all over the place. In this game it seems that I am always laggin behind and it's never a worthy persuit.
I have read on many threads here that you guys don't worry aobut science much and just make lots of money so you can trade, but do you ever change that to get science yourself? Or do you go the whole game simple trading for your sceince?
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Dominae
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You can definitely be a tech leader in Civ3. Some things to keep in mind:
1. Commerce. You need to put a Road on every single tile that your cities are working, and Republic or Democracy is a must for an aggressive research pace.
2. Trading. You need to check the Diplomacy advisor regularly (as often as you can stomach) in order to see what the AIs have for trade and if you can make a deal. Otherwise the AIs will trade techs behind your back, which means lost profits for you.
3. Selection. You need to know which techs to research. There is no one right answer in any given situation, but there are some rules of thumb. In the Ancient era, the Philosophy beeline (Alphabet-Writing-Philosophy) is very powerful because you get a free tech. In the Medieval era the Military Tradition beeline is good if you think you can surprise the AI with Cavalry, otherwise the top branch is better. In the Industrial era, always make a point of getting the Theory of Evolution, and take Atomic Theory and Electronics as your free techs.
4. Libraries. Libraries are, um, really good. Do not expect to beat the AI in research unless you have Libraries in your core cities.
5. Science Slider. If you are going to research, research full out, i.e., as close to 100% Science as you can afford. Do not try to earn Gold while researching, focus is better. Consider that if you have Libraries everywhere but not Marketplaces, 100% Science yields 150% of your Commerce, but 50-50% Science-Taxes only gives 125%.
Hope this helps.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:16
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I play on Monarch and I typically take the tech lead in the medieval age and never relinquish it.
The "never do your own research" line is for really high difficulties (certainly above Emperor). On Emperor or below, it's entirely possible to do your own research and be competitive.
The basis for good research is a sound economy. The keys to that are, IMO:
1) Lots of cities, appropriately spaced (I am considered something of a oddity in that my cities are spaced City-tile-tile-tile-City. That's wider than most people use).
2) Terrain improvement. There are two parts to this. First, optimizing what you order your workers to do (especially early on). Second, learning that it's virtually impossible to have too many workers. 
3) BIG cities. You want to get your cities up to size12, using 12 developed tiles each. Put that together with #1 and you will blow the AIs economies out of the water (on Monarch, that is ).
4) Government choice - Republic is usually the strongest overall choice, especially if you're after the tech lead. Democracy may be appealing, but consider how much anarchy you will incur (if you're religious, it may be worth it. Otherwise... probably not).
5) City improvements. Not just libraries and universities! Courthouses to lower corruption, and markets/banks to boost your treasury. The forbidden palace also plays its part in reducing corruption.
In addition to having a sound economy, there are other factors:
Trade with the AI. You can aim for a "branch tech lead" and trade tech from that to gain multiple techs from the AIs. Always trade on YOUR turn, and trade with all the AIs at once (unless, of course, they have nothing to offer you). Once you get a clear tech lead, start trading with the aim of getting as much gold per turn from the AIs as possible. That will hamper their research ability.
Slider tweakage. No matter how much you pour into research, you will never get a tech faster than 4 turns. This often results in the 4th turn of research needing only a small amount of beakers to finish the tech. So always play with the slider setting on that last turn (or even with 2 turns to go).
I may be missing a few things...
-Arrian
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Twelve Motion
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Alright great stuff thanks alot everyone. Of course I know all about good economy, it just doesn't seem to be working for me. I put the slider on 80% science and it still takes 14-17 turns for my next advance... But my cities are usually rather small, I need to do a better job of making graneries.
Also can you give me the story on scientists? Should I use them? Or are tax men or some other specilist better even if I am going to a science lead?
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gunkulator
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I'd also like to add:
1) Contacts: You simply must go out and meet your neighbors. More contacts = more tech deals. Why trade Literature to a single AI when you can trade it to all of them? A common strategy is to send curraghs and galleys overseas to the next continent. Yes, many will sink and the AI will never do this but it gives you exclusive trading rights to a bunch of civs through to the end of the Middle Ages. You can freely trade military techs to overseas civs since they can't harm you or trade to your neighbors.
2) Wonders: or lack thereof. Ignore all the ancient era ones, with the notable exception of Statue of Zeus. SoZ needs Ivory and so you are unlikely to be able to build it anyway. At upper levels, however, there are some decent strategies with the Great Library but these should be avoided until you get a better feel for the game.
3) Civ Choice: While the debate over the "best" civ is never ending, there are clearly some strong ones out there. You'll have an easier time starting out with the Iroquois, Dutch, Persians or Egyptians.
4) Overcoming Civ2 biases: This may be the hardest of all. The game sure seems similar to Civ2 but there are enough differences to force you to change your strategy. Most of the crutches you got used to in Civ2 are gone, e.g. Fundamentalism, infinite non corrupt cities, diplomats & spies, caravans, howitzers, stack death, zone of control, very predictable combat.
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:16
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For a Deity level Civ II player having trouble with Monarchy, the number one cause would be excessive use of the luxary slider, dimenining both science & taxes.
Having many luxary resources in your trade network + Market Places in every city have taken the place of the Civ II luxary slider [running non-fundie] in Civ III.
Another cause can be forgetting to micromanage the science slider to eliminate wasted beakers.
In Civ II, each city's science was calcualated seperately so you wouldn't waste many beakers and could actually reserach two techs the same turn. In Civ III, taxes and science is calculated in masse, all extra beakers that turn are thrown away.
The other main difference is that in Civ III, Court Houses are much more important. In Civ II, become any of Fundie, Commie, or Democracy and you don't need Court Houses at all. In Civ III, almost all cities will evenually benifit from having a Court House.
There's also placing the FP in a good location.
quote:
Originally posted by Twelve Motion
I am playing this game on Monarch mostly. I used to play Civ II on Diety, but this game is just different enough that I need to get used to it. One of the things I have noticed is, I can't ever seem to get ahead in science. In Civ II once I got the ball rolling, I was WAY ahead in science if I had libraries and universities all over the place. In this game it seems that I am always laggin behind and it's never a worthy persuit.
I have read on many threads here that you guys don't worry aobut science much and just make lots of money so you can trade, but do you ever change that to get science yourself? Or do you go the whole game simple trading for your sceince? |
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:16
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You can play Persia in Vanilla.
Yes, no Statue of Zeus, and a few other wonders and buildings. But Vanilla could be modded to allow imporvements and some of the wonders.
Note that every Native American civ that was in Vanilla have different traights in Vanilla, and so does England.
Industrialist traight was over the top in Vanilla and the Expanionistic traight was weak as well. [You can mod Vanilla to fix Expanionistic being too weak but can't mod it to tone down Industralism.] Religious was also somewhat too powerful in Vanilla and can't be toned down either.
The Wall Street SW requires 5 Banks in Vanilla, this considerly increases the priority of getting 5 Banks in Vanilla compared to Conquests. This is also modable.
Corruption and FP works differently in vanilla. Bascially, under Vanilla a city can have a CN so large that having just a Court House does no good whatever, or just being in a WLTPD does no good whatsoever, but having both brings the city out of virtually corrupt status.
And the ideal location for the FP in Vanilla is as far from your Palace as possible. (New city rank orders.) But unless you happen to have a spare leader, your going to be somewhat restricted by the sites that would acquire complete the FP in a reasonable timeframe (after building the CH and assuring it's in a WTLPD)
Communism is weaker in Vanilla, and there's also no Feudalism or
Fascism.
Timing of Civ 4; Maybe in time for Christmas 2005.
quote:
Originally posted by Twelve Motion
Ok great thanks again.
By the way for anyone that plans on giving any more info, I have a mac, and therefor don't have the exp to this game. So things like Statue of Zues, or being Persia I can't do 
When is civ 4 coming out? |
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Twelve Motion
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how do I apply all these mods you are talking about?
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lebensraum
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vanilla/ptw ?
research ?!!
all you need's the pointy end of a stick, mate
have a nice day ...
but seriously,
tech extortion and leader farming will get you out of almost any hole you find yourself in
not so with conquests
sadly, since conquests, armies have become virtually useless
the only thing they're good for now is making more armies
* sounds of distant rumbling
as mount theseus stirs in its slumber
however, in vanilla/ptw a few lucrative peace treaties and a couple of leaders will get you safely through
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lebensraum
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Religious was also somewhat too powerful in Vanilla and can't be toned down either.
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heretic
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lebensraum
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exactly
ai field operations = crap
armies only increase your advantage in the field
in vanilla/ptw
army costs: one leader (ouch) and two - three otherwise viable, upgradable units
army serves one purpose: create more leaders via heroic ep
a farming we will go ...
well, i'm a culture slut and i'll build 'he' just for the cp's of it
c3c battle creates a stronger delineation between civ & mil functions of the empire
in vanilla, going to war was a cultural as well as a defence or resource imperative
Edit: oh ... and research 
Last edited by lebensraum on 24-12-2004 at 02:57
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lebensraum
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as to the utility of armies, i disagree
say you have three vet swords attacking into a town defended by two spears
normally, they should win, and take the town in one turn
put those same swords in an army and you can't take out two spears in one turn anymore because, instead of three units giving you three possible combat events, you now have one unit. sure, the army will win the combats but you get only one combat event per turn
it gets worse...
say your first two swordsmen are succesful but wounded
then those two swordsmen can rest and heal while the third moves on to the next target
armies ... heal ... slowly
in fact overall i'd have to say armies just slow me down
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lebensraum
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the only reason i would use an army (van/ptw) is to have one successful combat so i can go leader farming
tech extortion and leader farming alone will allow you to catch up and lead in tech at pretty much any level, including deity
if the question is ... how do i stay in the game from a research point of view
the answer is simple ... go beat the b*ll*ks off somebody
how do i stay in the game from a cultural point of view?
see above
how do i stay in the game from a diplomatic point of view?
good question .. i'll let you know if it ever happens
none of this holds true for c3c
leaders - brought up the ol' fashened way - can do very little for you except increase your combat strength by making more armies
in van/ptw: violence engenders art, culture, scientific wonders...
in c3c: violence only engenders ... well ... a deep, tranquil sense of well-being
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by lebensraum
as to the utility of armies, i disagree
say you have three vet swords attacking into a town defended by two spears
normally, they should win, and take the town in one turn
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Against two spears, I would expect to lose at least one sword, possibly two if I'm unlucky. Otoh, I'd expect not to lose any army.
quote:
put those same swords in an army and you can't take out two spears in one turn anymore because, instead of three units giving you three possible combat events, you now have one unit. sure, the army will win the combats but you get only one combat event per turn |
Not true in C3C. All armies get an additional move or attack so not only do you attack twice with a three sword army, you'll almost surely win twice and not suffer any casualities. Also, the AI is loathe to attack a full strength army while it has no problem at all weakening or killing your swords on their slow trip to their city.
quote:
it gets worse...
say your first two swordsmen are succesful but wounded
then those two swordsmen can rest and heal while the third moves on to the next target
armies ... heal ... slowly |
Again, true for vanilla or ptw, not C3C where armies not only heal fully within one turn in a barracks city, they heal in enemy terriory even without battlefield medicine.
In vanilla or ptw, the time when armies really shined was around the mid to late middle ages when defensive strengths stated to exceed the best attack strength available. Try attacking a city of riflemen with cavalry and you'll find you lose quite a few. Every lost cavalry is 80 shields of production lost. Put those cavalry in armies and the extra hps turn losses into wins. Yeah, it takes a few turns to heal, but meanwhile your city is building new units, not replacement units.
quote:
none of this holds true for c3c
leaders - brought up the ol' fashened way - can do very little for you except increase your combat strength by making more armies |
You're looking at things too narrowly. Armies lead to victories which leads to tech/gold extortions, weaker AIs, wonder capture and resource/lux capture. The only thing armies can't help with is culture.
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by lebensraum
as to the utility of armies, i disagree
say you have three vet swords attacking into a town defended by two spears
normally, they should win, and take the town in one turn
put those same swords in an army and you can't take out two spears in one turn anymore because, instead of three units giving you three possible combat events, you now have one unit. sure, the army will win the combats but you get only one combat event per turn
it gets worse...
say your first two swordsmen are succesful but wounded
then those two swordsmen can rest and heal while the third moves on to the next target
armies ... heal ... slowly
in fact overall i'd have to say armies just slow me down |
Send those 3 units as horses and they do not win at all. Send those swords and the AI has attackers it can send and whittle down those swords before they get to the city. They will not attack the army.
As to you scenario, I am not sending on a lone sword to do anything, except pillage or capture workers.
Most of the time your three swords will lose at least one unit, while the army loses nothing. If the city has more than 2 defenders, you probably do not capture it at all.
The army will either captue it or break it down. Of course if this is C3C, you got nothing to even talk about. The army attack multiple times and heals quickly. It got there way beofre the swords did and before the city gets reenforced.
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22-12-2004 02:22
@ the DL's name
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