22-12-2004 11:00									#1
	MOO2 The Silicoids And Sakra Are Laughing At Me Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Just out of curiosity, against the AI does anybody else play Pre-Warp, Average, Impossible, 8 player, Huge games? That's what I've been trying to beat (best I've ever done was win a 5 player game). For me personally, that setup seems like the most challenging. I also think Average resources are the fairest to the AI. That's just my own take on it. However, in spite of the guides, I'm finding the "Impossible" tag to be right on the money. From the tips I've read, it seems like most players pick a resource with a certain customized race in mind. So I have a question for the people who do play the setup I described and beat it regularly. What is your customized race? Thanks.

Last edited by Widget4 on 10-01-2005 at 06:11

	22-12-2004 12:35									#2
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That is my normal game, where I change the Avg from time to time to organic or mineral.

Here is one I played recently from the race someone was talking about. I do not like this race a lot as it is a bit slow.

Settings: Rep -GC -SD Uni (6) Aqua (5) LHW (1) RHW(2) +P (3) +50 PoP (3)
Huge PreWarp Avg Age 8 players
Impossible Anties OFF Tactic Combat Random Off.


T000 Sell barracks, start CB, 2/6/0 8G/9F/31I/0R
T007 found III, set to housing 0/1/0, move 5 to research to get freighters
T012 R-EC, switch HW to freighter
T013 start CB 30/5/1
T016 Hired Kimbuzzi farm leader
T019 found IV
T026 found II
T028 R-RL
T029 found V, move ind to research, start freighter, set all others to SB prebuilds for RL
T033 start spy for RL
T038 R-hulls, switch all to RL
T039 start SB on all but HW (not done)
T041 R-AF, start spy
T045 R-std cells, switch all to AF
T046 start Sb as they finish AF's
T047 R-pods
T048 start scout on HW Reserve 849 +14BC Pop 29 RP 85

	22-12-2004 14:05									#3
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Evaluating a race with HW upgrades in a huge galaxy is a bit like using Aquatic in a mineral rich setting.

One that I use now and then for huge maps is...

Unification
Aquatic
Subterranean
+50% Pop
Repulsive
-20 SD
-10 GC

Pretty much weighs down planets under so much population the stars start orbiting them.

	22-12-2004 18:08									#4
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"... so much population the stars start orbiting them" I'll have to remember that line.

Still: a good homeworld helps when getting ahead is most advantageous: in the beginning of a Prewarp or Average Tech start. An Artefacts Homeworld can help get the Auto Factory quicker, which means a quicker blitz, or earlier colonization, or an accelerated research schedule, which - singly or (better) together - means being better prepared sooner.

Remember also: the Aqua/Sub/+50%Pop race may multiply like Rabbits, but there are Foxes out there. Races with good attributes make good slaves. Indeed, they round out their captors' strengths.

Picks can be partitioned into 3 categories:

(1) Homeworld (AHW, RHW, LHW).

(2) Racial (including Aquatic, Subterranean, Tolerant, Gravity,Population Growth, Taxability, Industry, Science, and Food requirements).

(3) Imperial (e.g. Government, Ship Attack, Ship Defence, Ground Combat, Telepathic, Transdimensional, Warlord, Charismatic, Spying, Omniscient, Creative, Repulsive).

Many picks are conceptually compounds: eg, Telepathic combines Diplomatic, Spying, Planetary Mind Control, and Immediate Use of Captured Ships. I mention that because it has just occurred to me that Cybernetic combines the Imperial property of Regenerative Ships with the Racial characteristic of eating half a unit of food and half a unit of industry (post-pollution). However, I think Cyber may be the only case that crosses category boundaries.

The thing is, Homeworld picks must be exploited early, to overwhelm the opposition. Race picks apply no matter how many worlds your people have settled. Empire picks affect every world and every race you conquer.

The values of the picks vary according to the map and the situation; but no matter the map, a turn wasted is a turn ceded to one's enemies. Often a single turn makes the difference between a decisive victory and an ignominious defeat.

So i say make every turn count to the utmost. Thus, if you're a researcher or a quiet builder AND if EITHER it's PreWarp start OR the map is Small OR it's going to take your race many turns to get its colonies up and running, then Homeworld picks are well worth it.

However, if your aim is to get as many worlds as possible ASAP - e.g. by conquering Klackons, Sakkra, Silicoids and Trilarians so early that there isn't time to build or research anything; OR by putting so many points into Science and Industry that AHW and RHW scarcely make a difference even at the start - then forget about HW picks.

If there is a long-run (which presupposes a Huge, or at least a Large, map), then eventually it's only the Imperial picks that will matter (of all those you chose), as most of the many worlds of your empire will be dominated by captive races.

	22-12-2004 20:26									#5
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I can't honestly say that I beat the AI frequently on impossible . . . yet. My typical game is hard or impossible, huge, 8 players, average galaxy age, average tech. I have a strange aversion to changing the age of the galaxy, even though that might improve my win ratio against an impossible AI. I feel like the average age puts all races on something like an even playing field. Anyway, my current game, with 6 players and (I think) pre-warp, is:
Dictatorship
Aquatic
Subterranean
+100% pop
LHW
-SD
-SA
-GC

(I think that adds up, but I'm not sure.) As others have noted, the relative value of that large homeworld that I took decreases (a) as the size of the galaxy increases; and (b) as the game progresses. In short, the more colonized planets there are, the less relative value any one world will have. Early in the game, though, this race simply outbreeds everyone -- more farmers, more scientists, more workers . . . and more mouths to feed. If you've got several habitable planets in your home system, plop down some colony bases, set them to housing, and you'll find that you can develop new worlds very quickly by simply shipping in colonists. Frankly, there are probably customized races better suited to a huge galaxy. It would probably be wise to substitute some other advantage for the large homeworld. Nonetheless, this one's fun.

Look around the forums for threads on custom races. Good information & discussions there.

	22-12-2004 21:50									#6
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I forgot to add that I also play with Antarans attack, random events, tactical combat. I think that's what they're called. If I'm playing correctly the Antarans always attack me, the random events will knock out something like a ship I just built or try to slow my development down, and I'll end up with a two or three front war. I think one of my big problems is that when I get to the midgame I get sloppy and start clicking the turn button over and over without micromanaging like I should. I've played this game on and off since it came out and have to relearn every time. Right now I'm trying with a creative, omniscient, poor homeworld, repulsive, unification, -20 ground combat race, +20 ship attack. I give myself the cheat of starting a game with at least one planet in my home system that is abundant and normal gravity.

Last edited by Widget4 on 22-12-2004 at 22:59

	22-12-2004 22:16									#7
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Here's a couple of other things I've been wondering about. I'm not good at blitzing; I never seem to be able to reach the enemy. So I end up usually trying to build a better fleet. However, I used to always lose my advantage in tech due to spying. So I start off making spies from pretty early on. I looked at my statistics though in one of my games and 20% of my maintenance costs were going to spies. That's a huge amount of capital. Any ideas on the optimum number of spies in the beginning, middle, and end game (if you get there)? Or what's the best way to use spies?

	22-12-2004 22:41									#8
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You're right about the homeworld picks, Zoetrope. I figured Omniscient might make up for the slow start because you gain colonizing efficiency by being able to soak up the best quality planets in your area. The trouble is on Average there isn't a lot of quality out there.

	22-12-2004 22:45									#9
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I would just pay the cost for the spies, if I was creative. Most creative races are best off to turtle. Fill up the HW and then all colony planets in the system.

Maybe grab one or two systems, if they are good and you can get defenses up soon enough.

Concentrate on getting up the tech tree to HEF and Deep Core. Then you can get 6 or so BB's and bust Orion. Maybe refit the ships and start eliminating your neighbors.

At this point you are steady making ships and maybe some transports. You want to grab a planet here and there to be able to reach others.

After getting Adv City, I tend to rush to Star Gates with this race so I can defend any system I grab at any time.

	22-12-2004 23:22									#10
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Thanks VXMA, that's good advice. I think I need to figure out how to turtle better. I have a feeling I might be getting too big too soon and I get slapped around for it. If I stay small, though, I generally tend to get crushed at some point.

	23-12-2004 01:24									#11
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Great summary, Zoetrope.

quote: So i say make every turn count to the utmost. Thus, if you're a researcher or a quiet builder AND if EITHER it's PreWarp start OR the map is Small OR it's going to take your race many turns to get its colonies up and running, then Homeworld picks are well worth it.

This is why I sometimes take AHW in a large galaxy, if I'm not planning to colonize heavily early on. In a huge galaxy, it just seems insignificant.

quote: As others have noted, the relative value of that large homeworld that I took decreases (a) as the size of the galaxy increases; and (b) as the game progresses.

For 1 point, it's hard to see LHW as a waste. It'll probably still give you a good return on that investment, unless you passed up a great pick because you were 1 point short.

quote: Originally posted by Widget4 Here's a couple of other things I've been wondering about. I'm not good at blitzing; I never seem to be able to reach the enemy.

Do you mean you're unable to find them, or that you lack the fuel cell tech to reach them? Because a blitz fleet accompanied by outpost ships can go raid opponents well outside your normal range.

quote: I looked at my statistics though in one of my games and 20% of my maintenance costs were going to spies.

I usually build about 8 spies and then even the Darloks are usually only getting older tech. Of course, I also research Neural Scanner, Stealth Suit, and Cyber-Link Security.

In the endgame, they're never gonna steal enough of the useful techs to field them effectively, with my fleet ravaging their worlds.

quote: Originally posted by Widget4 You're right about the homeworld picks, Zoetrope. I figured Omniscient might make up for the slow start because you gain colonizing efficiency by being able to soak up the best quality planets in your area.

A bit of scouting with cheap frigates that you'll put to good use later as a defense line, will make Omni irrelevant.

	23-12-2004 07:06									#12
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playing on impossible is all about the super races. Yours and the ones you conquer. In the demo game that all effort seems to have drifted away from we had a research race, and we started next to sub/lith/tol silicoids which soon became our guys. hmm I may play the next turn since I just saw postings in the old threads.

Last edited by Whoha on 23-12-2004 at 07:14

	23-12-2004 21:26									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Widget4 You're right about the homeworld picks, Zoetrope. I figured Omniscient might make up for the slow start because you gain colonizing efficiency by being able to soak up the best quality planets in your area. The trouble is on Average there isn't a lot of quality out there.

IMO Omni is only useful to a true tele blitz race/game. IOW if I go with say tele feudal warlord, I want to know where everything is as I will not research anything and I must take the fewest turns possible to finish off everyone.

So being able to see the map is critical. I need to figure out how many OP's I need and exactly when and where from the start.

Otherwise I woudl rather use the 3 picks for production or research. Anyway I will have Loknar in a while and will get Omni for free in a normal game.

	23-12-2004 21:33									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Tiemler For 1 point, it's hard to see LHW as a waste. It'll probably still give you a good return on that investment, unless you passed up a great pick because you were 1 point short.

I have to agree, a LHW is almost always the way to go.

	24-12-2004 02:05									#15
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I've always played MOOII on and off over the years, but never really sought help on it. I was surprised to find there were still message boards on it. Consequently, I never really thought about using outpost ships as combat engineers to allow me to rush the other races. I have a bad habit of not reading the rules carefully so when I first started playing I actually thought outpost ships were a cheap way to get a barracks built, but not really useful beyond that. I'm going to try a blitzkrieg game though. Schlieffen plan all the way to the Sakra homeworld.

Anyway, I agree that Omniscience is only really useful if you combine it with other rush strategy race characteristics. Nevertheless, right now I actually enjoy having it because I know exactly what's going on in the universe. It helps me figure out how the game plays. No more "you have 7 votes; the Sakra have 17 votes" surprises. I hate to say it, though, but I'm kind of a stellar converter fan. After dealing with all the back and forth attrition, there's nothing better than finally getting some cloaked stellar converter ships and going on a rampage. It's a cheap thrill, I know. You can rush with a missile boat early on or you can make a late game tech rush. I suspect I prefer the late game tech rush.

I have noticed something, though. When I go on an all out tech rush, just set everything to Trade Goods and start researching like mad, the other races (at least two) seem to be programmed to come by and say hello in large numbers. Is this my imagination? Is there a research level you should not go beyond if you're not ready for massive invasion? Thanks for the all great answers, by the way.

	24-12-2004 02:21									#16
	Put an end to popups!

I am not awae of any preset triggers for research. By and large the AI will, after encountering you, will evaluate you. If you are seen to be weak and they are Xeno they will make a demand or attack.

If you have become the top dog, they will soon be coming for you. Mainly it is a balance of strenghts. This is why you can build empty ships to prevent attacks (temporarily).

Try to note fleet build ups and be premptive. I like to see who has the most ships and try to attack their fleets, before they can surprise me.

Note that even if you cannot take out all of their ships, you can keep the count down to where they cannot defeat your planets.

You do not want to look up and see 10 BB's ready to rock on your planet and it has only a star base and ground batteries. Even if you have a race that has more stuff, it could get ugly.

	24-12-2004 10:26									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Widget4 So I end up usually trying to build a better fleet. However, I used to always lose my advantage in tech due to spying. So I start off making spies from pretty early on. I looked at my statistics though in one of my games and 20% of my maintenance costs were going to spies. That's a huge amount of capital. Any ideas on the optimum number of spies in the beginning, middle, and end game (if you get there)? Or what's the best way to use spies?

I just looked at a game I was finsihing and I have 40 spies and they are only costing 1% of my income. I did not have all that many systems as I was not making transports any more, just bombing the planets to dust.

So if you are paying 20%, I suspect the empire is not going as well as it should. This could be due to race traits or structures or lack of planets.

I noticed at the early stages I had 66 income and 2 spies, so it was 3%. Spies are 1 BC a turn you would need a lot of spies and very low income.

You can only have something like 64 spies on the HW and I forget how many on each race. I am betting you do not have that many as if you did the game is just mop up.

So it is going to take 10 spies with 50 income to be at 20%. 50 income is about one good system at 10% tax (default).

	24-12-2004 11:03									#18
	Got spare money?

Maybe I looked at it wrong. It might have been 2%. After 6 hours, I can get blurry eyed. Okay, I just looked at my most recent saved game and it was 4%. Whew, okay then I'll keep pumping out spies. Now that I think about it I did try a super spying strategy with an uncreative, Lithovore race where I had like 63 counter spies and then something like 37 active spies. That may have been the 20%. The only tech I got out of it was terraforming. LOL. I aborted that game, but it may have been the one I looked at to analyze my maintenance costs. I was on a Lithovore binge for a while so that might have been what happened. I thought 20% for spies was ridiculous. Oops, sorry for the confusion.

	24-12-2004 19:34									#19
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Widget4: I was under the impression that all the AI players get Omni for free from the game engine (of MOO2 and almost every other game). If so, then in single-player Cloaking is useful tactically but not strategically.

A second consequence would be that the Elerians are grossly underspecified for an AI opponent. They'd be more formidable if the explicit Omni were replaced by another 3-pointer such as RHW LHW. If one chooses Repulsive as well as Feudal, another 6 picks are freed up; there are many options: +2 Production; or +20 Spying; or increase Ship Attack to +50 and make them either Stealthy or Warlord or increase Ship Defence to +50.

	25-12-2004 03:48									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Zoetrope Widget4: I was under the impression that all the AI players get Omni for free from the game engine (of MOO2 and almost every other game). If so, then in single-player Cloaking is useful tactically but not strategically. A second consequence would be that the Elerians are grossly underspecified for an AI opponent. They'd be more formidable if the explicit Omni were replaced by another 3-pointer such as RHW LHW. If one chooses Repulsive as well as Feudal, another 6 picks are freed up; there are many options: +2 Production; or +20 Spying; or increase Ship Attack to +50 and make them either Stealthy or Warlord or increase Ship Defence to +50.

I agree with you. I've been kind of duffing my way through the game up to this point and I'm still flubbing my way around in it. (I'm sure that's pretty obvious ) In the real world I'm kind of an unconventional, left-of-the-Left, gadfly. When I play this game, though, I tap into a side of myself I had no idea I had- the obsessive, yet slipshod, micromanager inner child side of me. Anyway, I'm playing Omni pretty much so I can observe the game and see its development.

Once I feel confident that I finally know how this game works, I'll probably dump Omni and go back to the unknown universe. I think it's more fun bumping into a Rich Gaian planet than hunting around for them on the map. At any rate, my cloaked converter strategy was one of desperation. If my empire was 15 minutes away from crumbling (it usually is), then my default was to go for the cloaked converter, hit my enemy's choice planets, and try to destroy his fleet through economic hardship. My experience with that last stand strategy, though, was that if my ships weren't cloaked when I showed up in the AI sytem, then the AI invariably would have this awe-inspiring, crash-the-game sized fleet (actually it was probably just his Southern Fleet) in whatever system I tried to hit. His Northern Fleet would be heading for my Ultra Rich Gaia planet system. Ah, those were my old MOOII days. I lost most of the time, but the game was still a blast. There was a real pleasure in having no idea what was going on or trying out a reflection shield or whatever. I wish I could start this game for the first time all over again.

At any rate, these forums have really covered a lot of the aspects of the game that were only touched on in the manual. It's pretty clear to me now that it's not impossible to hammer the AI and win consistently. I think turtling is probably a more difficult game to play, but I'm not that familiar with the complications of a blitz strategy. At the moment, I'm in the start of a blitz game and I'm having some map problems, not enough outpost ships, flat tire with no spare, stuck in lots of mud, and the time is ticking away. It's a fun way to play.

Thanks for the advice on the racial picks. I went through one of VXMA's saved games and the log he posted for the game. I learned a lot from that. It was blitz game. So now I'm fiddling around with tele, warlord, omniscient, +30 Extreme Viciousness style races. I confess that a lot of my racial picks don't make good sense, but generally it's because I get impulsive or fall in love with a racial characteristic or just feel like bucking the trend. (I'll take up the mantle of the creative warlord, what the hell.) Whoah, well that's my MOOII rant for the month. Thanks for the help. I'm going through a MOOII binge at the moment and I'm starting to kick the Sakra and Silicoid around for the first time. That's a good sign. Who knows? Maybe I'll try a multi-player game at some point.

Thanks,

Moondoggie Widget4 on Alpha Ceti Pi

	25-12-2004 04:14									#21
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I know what you mean by the wish you could start fresh. I feel that way about Moo1. I miss the games where they show up with stacks of 32K ships and I have scramble to survive it.

I never see those stacks unless I am on a small impossible map now. In those games, I don't want to see them when I do. But those are the breaks.

	28-12-2004 18:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Zoetrope Widget4: I was under the impression that all the AI players get Omni for free from the game engine (of MOO2 and almost every other game).

I think they do. A while back, I began to wonder just how the AI races always seemed to colonize the best planets in their respective neighborhoods so quickly, so I began playing omni to see what was going on. The AI never sent scouts to check out systems before sending colony ships, and never lost colony ships to monsters. From Turn 1, in an average tech galaxy (iow, with no exploration), their colony ships headed straight for the best unguarded (as in no monster) planets in range. I don't recall the AI races ever losing scout ships to monsters, either, but I wasn't really watching for that, either.

	28-12-2004 23:29									#23
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I am not sure about the so called Omni for free, but they do seem to have a knack for ignoring those obstacles.

I have screen shot here that has a ship (frigate) going to a planet 9 parsecs away and it has ext fule cells and they have D fuel cells. So that should be 3 + 6 = 9 parsecs.

Fine, they did not go to Ubar and it is only 8 parsecs, but has an Eel. The funny thing is that the Eel will not attack you anyway.

It is too soon to say that it is a fact as the others cannot reach any systems with monsters.

Attachment: snap1.jpg
This has been downloaded 56 time(s).

	28-12-2004 23:47									#24
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Ok, I am onboard now. All of the systems that have any monsters have been avoided to date by all races.

Many races have systems only 3 parsecs away now and they have scouts sitting on a planet doing nothing. So that is very suspicous.

	29-12-2004 08:54									#25
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There are at least two levels of Omni, perhaps three:

(1) Visualising all planets. This is like having a space telecope that can image distant worlds on the continental scale. You gain this knowledge from some leaders, or from scouting .

(2) Spying all uncloaked enemy ships and monsters. The AI seems to have this ability.

(3) Seeing cloaked ships. The Omni pick gives this ability, but does the AI have it? My ships are rarely stealthed or cloaked, and I rarely play Darlok, so I haven't tested this, but Widget4's comments suggest that the AI doesn't see claoked ships. Is this so? If it is, I'll start using cloaking techs more often in single-player. Unfortunately I can't test this myself, as I'm under a sworn "no computer games" ban - until i complete my studies.

	29-12-2004 12:26									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: AI does anybody else play Pre-Warp, Average, Impossible, 8 player, Huge games? That's what I've been trying to beat

There is alot of ways to win, even for an relative n00b, once you get how the game works.

Personally, the easiest (least effort) for me is Uni Tele Warlord -GC Repulsive and blitz everyone to death. Early MIRV nukes can clean up 2~3 races early, and with that much more pop the universe just falls quickly as 26x MIRV nuke BBs of doom kill stuff as fast as you can move...

Tech:
Research Lab -> Reinforce Hull -> AF
depending on scouting, either tech up chem for fuel/pollution/armor, super comps/clone if no one is around and there is somewhere to colonize. Follow that tech to deep core and by then you should have half the galaxy. With deep core, one can simply swarm the remining races with sheer numbers, even if they have good tech.

	05-01-2005 23:38									#27
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I just realized one other restriction I impose. I don't accept council wins and I don't attack the Antarans to win. Does anybody else play that way or do you usually win through council votes or heading off to the Antaran homeworld? Just curious. I can't believe I forgot to add that because it definitely makes it tougher.

Widget4

	06-01-2005 00:36									#28
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I typically decline council wins &, for a long time, just turned "Antarans attack" off, which, obviously made an Antares victory impossible. I just recently turned the Antarans back on. By the time I can beat the Antarans, I can usually beat the other (AI) players.

	07-01-2005 02:26									#29
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Just an update. I finally beat an 8 player, Average, Pre-warp, Impossible, Antarans Attack, Random Events game. I didn't win by council vote or an Antaran homeworld attack (these can be handy though if defeating the AI is a sure thing). I took out 4 races: Sakra, Klackon, Mrshan, and Psilon. I found a race that I liked: Repulsive, -10 Ground, Poor Homeworld, Aquatic, Unification, Creative. It was a pretty straightforward turtle strategy that came down to a war of attrition between me and the Psilons after I sent the Sakra into extinction. I finally figured out that one of my main problems before was bad ship design. Thanks for all the advice. My armies were undefeatable, my ships . . . yada, yada, yada. Now I can rest easy knowing I'm one of the best ever, uh, on my machine.

Widget4

	07-01-2005 04:54									#30
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Way to go, just an FYI, but if you make the custom race using a picture of a given race, that race cannot be in the game.

Often a creative pick would want to not have another creative in the game. So use the Psilon pix for your race. One of the values of that tactic is that a turtle game will let that othe creative be around long enough to get some of the better tech and maybe trade it or have it stolen. This means you may have to face those techs.