24-12-2004 09:09									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That they can play common files without jumping through hoops?

They can play whatever music formats they want without a "default" player, because they can pick and choose their own. Or do you think end users are too stupid to do that.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Explain how the market is not competitive if the presence of competition does not constitute competition.

A monopoly is an economic phenomenon. Basically put, a monopoly exists when a company is able to dictate the terms to its customers, like when Microsoft strong-armed the big OEMs.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Why are they in different classes? Both are considered essential services on modern computers that consumers need.

There's no reason why browsing the Web is considered an essential service. Or, for that matter, why does one have to use a fully fledged computer to browse the Web.

quote: Originally posted by Asher This logic fails because Netscape 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0 also sucked ass.

That doesn't work because there's nothing you could compare them to. Of course, they couldn't compare to modern browsers, so what?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Netscape got venture capital from outside sources, MS got it from their resouces.

MS got (still has) continuous income from other sources. Netscape didn't. MS realised that, that's why they released a free browser. What do you think they referred to when MS said "cutting off Netscape's air supply?"

	24-12-2004 09:15									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They can play whatever music formats they want without a "default" player, because they can pick and choose their own. Or do you think end users are too stupid to do that.

I do think most users wouldn't know which media player to get.

I think it's utterly stupid for an OS to ship without multimedia support, but that's just me living in reality.

quote: A monopoly is an economic phenomenon. Basically put, a monopoly exists when a company is able to dictate the terms to its customers, like when Microsoft strong-armed the big OEMs.

Precisely -- which is exactly why this is not a monopoly...and antitrust laws governing media player inclusion are stupid, and harm consumers.

quote: There's no reason why browsing the Web is considered an essential service.

Give me a break -- 99% of people who buy a computer today use it on the internet...

quote: MS got (still has) continuous income from other sources. Netscape didn't.

Yes they did -- they had tons of venture capital floating around.

quote: MS realised that, that's why they released a free browser. What do you think they referred to when MS said "cutting off Netscape's air supply?"

Now is your chance to equate this back to the consumer. Explain to the consumer why they were fundamentally harmed by Microsoft making internet browsers free. Explain to them why they were harmed in being able to get on the internet "out of the box" without paying for additional boxed software. Explain to them why this was anticompetitive when there are many viable browser alternatives to Internet Explorer readily available, and indeed they are taking IE's market share now that they are actually superior products.

Good luck, because that's ridiculous.

	24-12-2004 09:19									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Are you still the only person willing to defend anticompetitive practices as a consumer benefit?

Anticompetitive practices are what MS did to strongarm OEMs to force them to bundle Windows.

Making IE free and bundled, making WMP free and bundled, etc. are NOT anticompetitive. Indeed, there are MANY competing media player programs and internet browsers out there. The US courts decided this, as well.

Users benefit from MS including the basic programs, and people who argue otherwise are out to lunch or have an agenda...

	24-12-2004 09:20									#64
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quote: I think it's utterly stupid for an OS to ship without multimedia support, but that's just me living in reality.

The vendors can decide which to install. No customer need be without MM support.

It's just that Microsoft can't dictate to the sellers what programs they put on the machine.

	24-12-2004 09:22									#65
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quote: Making IE free and bundled, making WMP free and bundled, etc. are NOT anticompetitive.

Of course it is. In the former case a court found that it was so.

	24-12-2004 09:24									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The vendors can decide which to install. No customer need be without MM support.

Why would a vendor choose NOT to install WMP on their systems? Vendors can already install other media players, and even make them defaults.

No vendor would realistically sell a computer without WMP, seeing as it costs the same either way...

	24-12-2004 09:25									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Making IE free and bundled, making WMP free and bundled, etc. are NOT anticompetitive. Of course it is. In the former case a court found that it was so.

that court's decision is what Asher is arguing against!

	24-12-2004 09:26									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course it is. In the former case a court found that it was so.

This is COMPLETELY false -- the US court ruled it was NOT anticompetitive. What Microsoft got in trouble for was strongarming OEMs, not for bundling IE.

That's why MS can bundle IE and WMP legally in the US.

In Europe, they DID say it is anticompetitive. But I strongly disagree with that, because it's a crock. You can't call something anticompetitive when there is plenty of active, viable competition.

	24-12-2004 09:27									#69
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quote: In Europe, they said it is anticompetitive. But I strongly disagree with that, because it's a crock.

Of course they must be wrong, because you've so amply demonstrated your knowledge of what an anticompetitive monopoly is.

	24-12-2004 09:29									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course they must be wrong, because you've so amply demonstrated your knowledge of what an anticompetitive monopoly is.

An anticompetitive monopoly does not exist when:
1) The media player is hardly a monopoly
2) There is TONS of competition for it
3) Users and vendors are free to choose their default players

I know what an anticompetitive monopoly is, and Windows Media Player is certainly not a monopoly, nor is its inclusion in Windows an anticompetitive move, given all of the alternatives readily available. In fact, Microsoft lets you install these programs before they're even shipped to the users (Dell offers their own media software, for example), and you can make any program you want the default (even iTunes)...

That ain't anticompetitive, my friend. It's something users want. And users buy MS' product.

What you want is for Microsoft to be castrated. You want Microsoft to be forbidden to bundle any kind of useful software so you can point at Apple and proudly proclaim how much free software it comes with.

	24-12-2004 09:30									#71
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What's wrong with a monopoly on a free product, anyway?

	24-12-2004 09:33									#72
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Another fundamental problem is this: Mr. Nice Guy talks about all the people switching from Windows to the Mac, and Urban Ranger talks about all the people switching from Windows to Linux.

Just how is Windows such an evil monopoly if people are supposedly switching en masse to other platforms?

You need to reconcile your logic here before you go any farther.

Are people really switching away from Windows? Given the ability to do this, how can you still ***** about the Windows "monopoly", given that you've both cited two "viable" alternatives.

	24-12-2004 09:39									#73
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Actually, I don't really care wether people switch to Mac OS X or Linux from Windows, though personally I prefer the Mac. Either way it goes right into the face of that BIG BULLY known as Micro$uck$!!!

	24-12-2004 09:42									#74
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Way to miss Asher's point completely.

	24-12-2004 09:42									#75
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Of course, Apple's not a bully. They treat their competition nicely, right? Just look at all of the other Apple clone makers. Or RealNetworks. Or anyone else who asked to use FairPlay on their players.

	24-12-2004 09:45									#76
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Apple is still the little guy.

	24-12-2004 09:45									#77
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The reason they're the little guy is because they are the true bully. MS has done some bullying, of course, but Apple makes a business out of it. It restricts their success, people don't want to put up with it.

	24-12-2004 09:55									#78
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Exactly!

And in the legal sense, Apple can get away with more just because they are the little guy.

	24-12-2004 09:56									#79
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So you agree with Asher that Apple lost because it's mindlessly, stupidly anti-competitive? Or tries to be?

	24-12-2004 10:00									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So you agree with Asher that Apple lost because it's mindlessly, stupidly anti-competitive? Or tries to be?

Apple lost because Steve Jobs blew his top and left the company, but now he's back.

	24-12-2004 10:01									#81
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Apple's marketshare continued to slide in the PC market under Jobs' leadership, before and after he left and came back.

	24-12-2004 10:10									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Apple's marketshare continued to slide in the PC market under Jobs' leadership, before and after he left and came back.

So. It takes time to turn a falling company around, Asher. Make no mistake about it.

The highly successful iPod and iTunes was pioneered under his watch and that will be a very important key to their coming victory in Platform War II!

	24-12-2004 10:32									#83
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MS may not really face any marketshare problems , even if it pulls out of Europe . There exists a thing called piracy , my friend .

And how exactly can MS dictate anything to anyone ? Saying that "I hate X . If you keep X , then I'm going away ." does not constitute coercion . It is called making a choice . If , for example , I live in an apartment building , and I have rented ten apartments ( for my extended family ) . Now , a person I particulatrly dislike wants to come and live in the same building , and wants to rent one apartment . I tell the landlord - either you turn him away , or I go away . Am I dictating anything to the landlord ? I think not . I am offering him a choice between keeping the rent from me , or from the other guy . If he values my rent from ten apartments more , then he will turn away the other guy . Simple , profit-based free-market operation , isn't it ?

	24-12-2004 10:32									#84
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quote: So. It takes time to turn a falling company around, Asher. Make no mistake about it.

Did you read his post? It started going bad while he was there!

quote: The highly successful iPod and iTunes was pioneered under his watch and that will be a very important key to their coming victory in Platform War II!

Because of course Ipod's have sooo much to do with what desktop computer someone buys...

By this measure, MS will pwn 'cuz of Xbox.

	24-12-2004 11:54									#85
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quote: The Dutch government has abandoned its negotiations with Microsoft over an ambitious plan to upgrade more than 260,000 workstations and servers. Despite a unanimous vote by the Dutch parliament in 2002 to adopt open standards and open source software, Microsoft recently opened exclusive negotiations with the Dutch government regarding a major software upgrade. After Dutch IT weekly newspaper Automatisering Gids leaked details about the €157m ($210m) deal, Dutch MPs demanded an explanation as to why there hadn't been a mandatory public bid.

[emphasis added]

link

What do you think? Even the Dutch joined in.

	24-12-2004 11:56									#86
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm MS may not really face any marketshare problems , even if it pulls out of Europe . There exists a thing called piracy , my friend.

Show me how it has a major impact, again?

quote: Originally posted by aneeshm And how exactly can MS dictate anything to anyone ? Saying that "I hate X . If you keep X , then I'm going away ." does not constitute coercion. It is called making a choice.

I am sorry, but the courts disagreed with your interpretation, and it appears that their opinions have more weight.

	24-12-2004 12:24									#87
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Even the courts' decisions have to have some logic behind them , UR , and in this case , it's flawed .

And what thing are you talking about having an impact ?

And UR , if we apply the same logic , then Linux distros should not have any bundled software .

	24-12-2004 12:46									#88
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What I was saying was piracy alone could not maintain any sizable deployment of operating systems, particularly in businesses and governmental organisations due to copyright concerns.

It is a fact that Microsoft dictated terms to the big vendors such as Dell and HP. This is part of the reasons why Microsoft was (still is) deemed a monopoly.

	24-12-2004 14:08									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger [emphasis added] link What do you think? Even the Dutch joined in.

I'm still thinking that what governments put on PCs used for word processing is kinda moot from the perspective of the consumer desktop, and I'm also kinda thinking that the average computer buyer will not think "hmm, the Dutch government decided to try Linux on their secretary computers, why shouldn't I?"

You should also add a [slant added] qualifier to your post: all that happened is the Dutch Government has stopped looking at Microsoft as the sole competitor for a huge contract, flying in the face of their own law they passed in 2002.

Now Microsoft is one of many negotiating. You make it sound like they chose Linux...all they did was choose to hear their sales pitch.

And how much do you want to bet MS will meet their price?

	24-12-2004 14:13									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I am sorry, but the courts disagreed with your interpretation, and it appears that their opinions have more weight.

The US courts, which have considerable more weight in the world than the EU courts, have disagreed with your and the EU's interpretation, and found no fault with MS bundling services such as IE and WMP.

The fact that the European Union has some very, very questionable logic and reasoning doesn't really matter much to anyone but Europeans themselves. And even then, which vendors would buy the version of Windows without WMP, given that they are the same price? Why would you go without additional free features when you're trying to sell something to the customer?

This whole court case was a huge waste of time and money, something I gather the EU is getting rather good at...