17-12-2000 10:39									#1
	Cheating Computer Players Really Piss Me Off Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I really hate it

I know that since most programmers can't write AI routines that worth a hoot or two, and that game companies are under some kind of pressure to rush games out the doors these days, they give computer players all kinds of advantages.

This can get really out of hand when the computer players not only can do things faster but doesn't have to follow the rules of the game like you must. I was playing a game of MoO 2, and got really upset when the computer players can colonize planets they can't possibly reach - I know, I have spies to keep a tab on them. Not only that, but they can have a very large fleet (several battleships when they have only 6 or 7 star systems) while turning out colony ships like crazy and still have lots of leftover for research. I understand MicroProse is very notorious for cheating computer players, even Sid did it in his games. But this is just too !@$(! much.

They really must cheat less and do a better job in writing AI. No, I don't use cheat codes.

Share your gripes with us.

	17-12-2000 11:32									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Lately I've been more concerned with cheating human players (scum!) online, but I still agree wholeheartedly.

In Shogun it really pisses me off when the computer can send additional troops at me when I invade, all because of a rules loophole in the strategy layer.

Cheating computers are sometimes still a must, but utmost care should be taken to make its behaviour look believeable.





[This message has been edited by Jaakko (edited December 17, 2000).]

	18-12-2000 02:24									#4
	Suffering from ads?

Well, but we can cheat as well!

	18-12-2000 10:17									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Maybe you do, Narck, but not me. I don't use cheat codes, etc. I also try to avoid reload save games, etc., unless the situation gets really out of hand.

	19-12-2000 19:38									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I cheat very rarely but my brother is cheating the whole time

	19-12-2000 20:14									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Despite this cheating, how often do you lose a game of MOO2?

It would be ideal if there was better AI, but the time and cost involved in making a computer player as good as a human is beyond the reach of a game company.

The omnescient AI bothers me in MOO2. It really makes stealth ships pointless.

	20-12-2000 17:01									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Garth,

It depends on what level. On "Impossible," quite often On "Hard," now and then, On "Average," never.

I don't think it's too much to ask for if the AIs are just a little smarter. For example, in one game the Merlars were fighting me. I had 4 battleships defending a colony, and the dumb sod sent in 3 groups of battleships, 3, 3, and 2, arriving on 3 different turns. If it knew how to coordinate, I would have lost. Instead, I held the colony, destroyed 4 of its battleships, and lost none of mine.

	20-12-2000 21:36									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, that's why they need cheating. It would be nice if the AI only had 6 battleships, but sent them all at once. Instead they can build and support many more ships than you ever could but they use them poorly.

I am looking foreward to real time combat in Moo3 because I don't think the current system is fair, at least in the late game. Once you get plasma cannons I usually destroy every computer fleet in one turn and they never get to fire on me.

That is another reason cheating needs to be fixed, I don't want to see real fleet combat when the AI can build and support 70 doom stars!

So I suppose I am arguing against myself here

	22-12-2000 08:00									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That's rotten ain't it? How hard it would be for the computer players to coordinate these attacks? If they don't know how to send them in from diffent points so they arrive at the same time, send all the ships to one planet before attacking. That seems to be what MoO used to do. Sometimes when I capture a system from a computer player I would notice zillions of fleets all heading towards that system, but in small groups.

I wouldn't be so pissed if the computer players play smarter on the upper levels instead of just merely cheat worse

I don't know about MoO 3, the background story sounds hokey to me
[This message has been edited by Urban Ranger (edited December 21, 2000).]

	22-12-2000 14:59									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well,

Look what has happened with chess ?
Do you really want to be beaten "à la régulière" by the computer ?
Is it not better to be able to complain "Mummy, the AI has cheated. That's why I've lost".

------------------
Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

	23-12-2000 08:23									#12
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, I am sure Kasparov is really good in MoO

	27-12-2000 09:07									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Actually, no, that's what I like about Chess. It's you against your opponent, no luck (no dice) and no cheating. If you win - you've earnt it. If you lose - you can learn from what your opponent did right.

That's one of the reasons why I love chess so much.

	28-12-2000 17:07									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Same with weichi (i.e. Go) and duplicate bridge.

	03-01-2001 05:00									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have been retrograde - immersed in Colonization in the past few weeks. There's cheating there too with dragoons emerging miraculously when you attack another European civ's colony. Their ships become incredibly strong when you've won a few sea battles, the lowly caravel defeating your powerful frigate!

Reading through the old tips, it's amazing too how common the game reload cheat was accepted by human players at the time - 1995.

	03-01-2001 18:42									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Oh yeah, reload.

Can't say if it's a cheat or just a way to neutralise computer players' cheats. I guess it depends on how it's used.
[This message has been edited by Urban Ranger (edited January 03, 2001).]

	04-01-2001 03:47									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I recently played Colonization again, and I used the reload a lot. The old style of combat with no hit points really forced you to cheat. I mean losing veteran dragoons to unarmed indians in open terrain, please!

	04-01-2001 09:16									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think there are several cheat modes by the computer players in MoO 2. As far as I can tell, there is at least a "regular" and an "extra strength". Occasionally, when I start, I notice that I have a very good home system. However, this just indicates trouble, as the computer players are given more stuff than usual to begin with. I don't know what they have, but they tend to have colonized several star systems (good ones with mineral rich planets) when I send out my first colony ship. I wouldn't know this other than by a stroke of luck. On an exploration trip a scout of mine found a hero with the Galatic Lore ability early in the game, which enabled me to watch how the computer players expand. My conclusion is they cheat far worse than normal. Also, in this mode, many competiting races are given abilities (and disadvantages) above and beyond the list in the manual.

I wish they tell me these things

	04-01-2001 20:24									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Try playing as omnescient a few times to get you really depressed. Then you can watch the computer develop from turn 1

	04-01-2001 20:58									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

That bad, eh? Blah!


How do you get around "super cheat mode" anyway? Nothing I do seems to be fast enough
[This message has been edited by Urban Ranger (edited January 04, 2001).]

	05-01-2001 20:07									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I usually take a telepathic race. A cruiser costs a little more than a colony ship (~550 - 500) but can take any number of colonies. If I can survive until I get the tech that I need to build my first cruiser (you need certain techs to make the cruiser able to destroy enemy battleships and starbases) and actually get it built I am fine.

If everybody but me gets planetary defenses I am in trouble. I don't usually play creative, it's more of a challenge to play without.

	06-01-2001 10:30									#22
	Got spare money?

Well yes, one of my cruisers did destroy two enemy battleships once. That was in regular cheat mode though, not the super cheat mode.

	06-01-2001 16:11									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hi Urban Ranger,

I dont think AI cheates much in Master of Orion II.
On which level do you play , on the highest two the
comp players have unfair advantages for their race
(additional race bonus , look in the statistic window
to see that) . That is why i play the game on average
level , the comp players have no additinal bonuses
but still play to the best of their abilities .
How would you know that exactly which planets are
reachable for other players , depends on tech and
there are wormholes which they may use as well although
they do not often .
Maybe you have played against the Mrshhan , it is very
easy for them to have a large fleet right from the
beginning .
Note that there are two (or more ?) techs that increase
command points , and that heroes may increase command
points as well.
What i want to say is , the AI is not bad in this game
it is for example much better as in civ II .
I have to admit in one point , comp players in
Master of Orion II never lose their ships sending
them to the Guardian or space monsters , they indeed
seem to know that from the beginning .

	07-01-2001 07:14									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi Martin

On average level the computer players are quite lousy. You should win readily with no problems once you have played a few games and figure out optimized build path (for your style) and ship configurations.

I say the computer players cheat because they do. I have seen them colonizing planets further than they could reach since I knew they don't have the tech (spies, estimation) and wormholes (found out eventually).

They also start off with unfair advantages on the higher levels

	07-01-2001 07:21									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Garth,

I tried your method yesterday and the buggers all had ground defenses! Ugh! I eventually had to start building large warships like in a normal game. I also found out that blockade kills 50% of your production (and food).

	08-01-2001 20:35									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ground defenses suck You can build missile ships to take them out, I usually build cruisers or destroyers for that purpose. But that gets a little costly.
edit: I meant it sucks to run into ground defences in the early game, not that they are useless.

Impossible level is tough, hence the name I usually relent and take creative if I am playing at that level.

Martin, the computer doesn't exactly play it's hardest at average level. They are less likely to war with you at that level. Meaning you can pick and choose your wars and eliminate the computer players one at a time.
[This message has been edited by Garth Vader (edited January 08, 2001).]

	12-01-2001 02:13									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

Absolutely right, cheaters should be banned for life...I mean everytime a cheater appears when I'm playing Counter-Strike online, my entire Half-Life.exe crashes and I have to reboot. It's frustrating...

	14-01-2001 21:28									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I would like to know how the Silicoids manage to build 20 battleships in the time span that I built 2, given that:

[*]I have better production tech
[*]He has only twice my population but on three times the number of planets
[*]Improved his tech (his new ones are better than the old ones I destroyed initially)
[*]I have already destroyed a dozen of his battleships
[/list]

How the hell can a computer player build all those ships and maintain them? 20 battleships is 120 command points, not to mention his plethora of transport ships. It should have gone broke long ago!

Cheat like that is really disgraceful.

	04-02-2001 18:24									#29
	Got spare money?

AIs Cannot Cheat. Period.

If the AI could cheat it would be as smart as us. If it was as smart as us it wouldn't need to cheat.

Have you ever converted a build to a wonder in Civilization, landed a caravan or three and then switched back? Have you ever planted an
archer on a mountain that had no strategic value because you know the AI will burn tons of resource attacking it? That's cheating! You are taking advantage of the game engine to subvert the design intention. You are spoiling the game for yourself (unless that's how you get your fun).

And the best cheat of all (because its designed for you) : you get advance warning when the AI is about to complete a wonder; bingo! expend a few barracks and get it built now.

Okay, the AI sometimes uses different rules to achieve its goals. That's because its primary role is to give you a worthwhile challenge. And, yes, I agree it is unsatisfactory when it becomes too obvious.
And, yes, of course we want better AI. But when you consider how much more complex Civ or Moo are than chess, and look at the thousands of people (and forty years) it has taken to develop smart chess programs, then you have got to be impressed by what has already been achieved in the best games. We can do without the moral indignation and constructively identify areas for improvement instead.

If you think AI is easy try asking Sid Meier or Norm Koger. Or try to do it yourself. If you're right, you will be whisked away by the military and set the task of conquering the world for real.

	05-02-2001 10:27									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I will just make an example of strong AI: Warlords series.

This is one of the ares where Open Source shines. If a pool of routines are freely available, people don't have to re-invent the wheel every time.

Another thing. Is bending the rules cheating? Maybe. Is taking advantage of a flaw cheating? Hell no. If you consider otherwise, then it's not advisable to use your brain too much when playing against computer players, since they decidedly have much weaker "brains" than you, which is a flaw in itself.