28-12-2004 20:36									#1
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One thing I have always noted is that once the AI gets to nationalism, some nasty global conflagration breaks out. Sometimes I can stay out, sometimes I can't, sometimes I start it, but all the time, it happens, and the AI goes Fascist or Communist and their populations drop and my tech lead grows, or I get one finally, since they are too busy kiling each other and won;t trade techs.

Well, in this game I spoke about in the razing wonders game, THERE HAVE BEEN NO WARS! I mean, honeslty- its been 4000 years and yet the only wars have involved me, and I have only 2 neighbors! The god damned AI sits there peacefully, trading techs, resources, luxuries, and not killing each other brutally.

Has anyone else ever had a game in which the AI maintains world peace well into the industrial age?

	29-12-2004 02:42									#2
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Never.....no chance - not even close.

	29-12-2004 03:39									#3
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Never, but I have had games where I was never involved in any wars. Those were on Emperor Level and I won both of them by building the United Nations and winning the first vote. It was an experiment, but those were boring games.

I always play on real world maps so Europe is crowded and wars are inevitable. Maybe on maps that support peace and diplomacy...but I guess you had an exeptional game there.

	29-12-2004 06:11									#4
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I have had relatively peaceful games (involving AI Vs. me) when I have the continent all to myself.

But my last few games have been on pangea continents. And I have been annhilating my neighbors early to get large chunks of land. My remaining neighbors have been hostile. Though my reputation took a dive in these games because I attacked my early neighbors with no warning . My latest game, I'm having a hard time keeping the peace in democracy, so I switched to communism. I plan on getting the ass whooping stick out.

	29-12-2004 06:36									#5
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I always end up starting the World War near the end of the Middle Ages, and spending the rest of the game just trying to end the thing (diplomatically).

	29-12-2004 07:16									#6
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My games (regent or monarch) had been way to peaceful recently. This began about the time I started changing the aggression level from "normal" to "more aggressive."
Curiosity led me to change it to "less aggressive" and now wars are back to being pretty common. Maybe it's just coincidence, or maybe those two buttons are buggy.

	29-12-2004 09:48									#7
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what's a ***** is playing on an upper level on an archipelago map. Few if any natural wars to siphon off excess units from the AI. Massacres upon landing, even if fairly advanced comparatively.

	29-12-2004 10:17									#8
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Unless you're Scandinavia

	29-12-2004 13:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Unless you're Scandinavia

True. In my current game on a real world map England declared on me out of the blue, burning one of my cities on the American East coast. She had 5 cities, Phalanx and Swordsmen, I had 43 cities, Knights and Muskies. When I landed 6 Knights and 3 Musketeers in Cornwall I lost the entire stack at once, without a chance to attack. I would have loved to have some Vikings then...

Now I own Britannia

	29-12-2004 19:22									#10
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The thing is, this is the Marla giga Map, so in essence its two pangeas- but Eurasia has been peaceful!! Damn them, stop being at peace!

I have played several other games on the same map, and all of them have had their normal amount of bloody warfare, sicne after a point, the AI can't expand peacefully.

	29-12-2004 19:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Loui True. In my current game on a real world map England declared on me out of the blue, burning one of my cities on the American East coast. She had 5 cities, Phalanx and Swordsmen, I had 43 cities, Knights and Muskies. When I landed 6 Knights and 3 Musketeers in Cornwall I lost the entire stack at once, without a chance to attack. I would have loved to have some Vikings then... Now I own Britannia

A similar thing happened to me: I was playing a different Marla map variation of mine, and as Persia I controled the entire ME, Central Asia, North Africa, Central Africa, West Africa, Central Europe and all of Western Europe save Lisbon. I mean, a HUGE empire. The brits declare war on me- I land a force I thought would be sufficient, took one city, and then marched on London- man, my army got attacked near it, and while I took out a lot of Brits, one of the stacks of my army was wiped out, and the other had to retreat back to the city I held, which then had to hold of a counterattack.


Of course, I won the war, but it was a schock, given the Brits put up more of a fight than some vastly larger empires than them.

	30-12-2004 02:01									#12
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A bit of, but how well do the BIG maps play? On your machines?

	30-12-2004 03:07									#13
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I've seen some pretty peaceful games. Typically, however, if the AI doesn't start something, I will

Most of the time, they do fight.

If memory serves, the AI was quite peaceful in the Apolyton University "Give Peace a Chance" game (the object was to play totally peacefully - no military units, even, and win). Of course, Egypt did eventually decide to destroy me with a Cavalry onslaught 3 turns before I finished the UN, but nevermind that The AI civs were picked, IIRC, for their low aggression level.

What tends to screw the AI in the industrial age is the advent of MPPs and some bad governments (pre-Conquests, Communism. In Conquests - Fascism). Bad governments for the AI, anyway.

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 03:09									#14
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quote: A similar thing happened to me: I was playing a different Marla map variation of mine, and as Persia I controled the entire ME, Central Asia, North Africa, Central Africa, West Africa, Central Europe and all of Western Europe save Lisbon. I mean, a HUGE empire. The brits declare war on me- I land a force I thought would be sufficient, took one city, and then marched on London- man, my army got attacked near it, and while I took out a lot of Brits, one of the stacks of my army was wiped out, and the other had to retreat back to the city I held, which then had to hold of a counterattack. Of course, I won the war, but it was a schock, given the Brits put up more of a fight than some vastly larger empires than them.

A small AI civ on an island for thousands of years, particularly if they're backward in tech = shitloads of crappy units. Shitloads of crappy units can kill stacks of new shiny units.

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 04:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun A bit of, but how well do the BIG maps play? On your machines?

I found # of civs to be the biggest factor. Marla's map with 14 civs works well into the modern age, with 31 civs it barely makes it into the industrial age before I have to wait 10 minutes between turns.

	30-12-2004 11:20									#16
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Does anybody know about a world map with all the modern day countries on it, or at least most of them?

	30-12-2004 12:57									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I found # of civs to be the biggest factor. Marla's map with 14 civs works well into the modern age, with 31 civs it barely makes it into the industrial age before I have to wait 10 minutes between turns.

Correct. One of my games (huge real world map, 31 civs) takes 20 minutes/turn now. I only play it when I have to work late and have enough to do to fill the pauses.

When I remove some of the civs it gets faster and thus more fun.

	30-12-2004 19:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Does anybody know about a world map with all the modern day countries on it, or at least most of them?

What do you mean by that?

The game can only have 31 civs in it, so any mod will only have 31 of the 190+ countries today. And it will be of sucha scale that the ver small one are but a few square.

In terms of a world map that is accurate, for me Marla's map is the gold standard.

	30-12-2004 20:08									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian A small AI civ on an island for thousands of years, particularly if they're backward in tech = shitloads of crappy units. Shitloads of crappy units can kill stacks of new shiny units.

That's where tactical nukes work well. Just make sure the crappy units are nicely concentrated.


Back on topic, I never had a completely peaceful game. At some point the AI would start clobbering each other, or dying at my footsteps, or I would go after them. The only long lasting peace I see happens on the other continent. But it only survives until both continents meet.

	30-12-2004 21:24									#20
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I consider it a peaceful game if I can stay out of war. I can care less about what the AI countries do to each other .

And I have had peaceful games where I start on a continent all by myself and no one will attack me. But I can't win these games on the higher levels, I can't keep up with research. You need those early game contacts to keep up with research.

I'm curious though.

Do you guysy help the underdog AI countries when they are being beat up by the bigger one's? I'm not talking about direct military help by getting involved in the war. I'm talking about giving techs and such. Lately, I've been doing this. I'm trying to prevent these AI nations from doing their surges and conquering half the world. When they do this, I tend to lose the games. I'm not sure how effective it is though. Often I will give defensive techs such as nationalism so a country can at least defend itself from the other ai countries.

	30-12-2004 21:51									#21
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I find Industrial world-wars pretty much a constant of games on Monarch and above. On Regent, I had some very peaceful games.

Actually, my first Monarch win was pretty peaceful too, with only two big wars; me killing off the Romans in the ancient times, and just about every other AI raping the Americans in the Industrial. But there were several smaller AI-AI wars, and I did a couple small ones too.

	04-01-2005 15:43									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Do you guysy help the underdog AI countries when they are being beat up by the bigger one's? I'm not talking about direct military help by getting involved in the war. I'm talking about giving techs and such. Lately, I've been doing this. I'm trying to prevent these AI nations from doing their surges and conquering half the world. When they do this, I tend to lose the games. I'm not sure how effective it is though. Often I will give defensive techs such as nationalism so a country can at least defend itself from the other ai countries.

I often help the small, backward countries fight the larger countries. I will give them free techs, luxuries, resources and cash (assuming I have spare luxuries and resources). I might also get right of passage and send in my workers to improve their terrain and put down railways.

I find multiple luxuries very effective as they then have all pop units working to churn units out faster. The rail network really helps the production and particularly the survival rate of the two move units.

I stay out of the war and get ROP with the small civ and send in units to obstruct the large civ. (Example, large civ sends in a cavalry and I put units behind it to block withdrawal, the small civ safely kills the injured cavalry. Or maybe I block the big civ completely for a little while to give the little civ breathing space to build a few more units (need to investigate cities periodically to see how the little civ military is).

It is surprising how much damage a tiny civ can do if you use it for war by proxy. In my previous game tiny 3 city Babylon and tiny 3 city Egypt together inflicted massive losses on a really big civ while I peacefully built things and accumulated units. I had to dish out a lot of free resources, tech, luxuries and cash. I also had a lot of workers in their territories improving, building rail and repairing after pillaging. Costly but it was well worth it when my turn to fight the big civ came. (BTW Between them they actually managed to capture and keep a city).

	04-01-2005 16:52									#23
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quote: I stay out of the war and get ROP with the small civ and send in units to obstruct the large civ. (Example, large civ sends in a cavalry and I put units behind it to block withdrawal, the small civ safely kills the injured cavalry. Or maybe I block the big civ completely for a little while to give the little civ breathing space to build a few more units (need to investigate cities periodically to see how the little civ military is).

Hey, I like that.

Once tried to play peacekeeper between two nations, placing my units between them, to prevent them from fighting and maybe forcing them to sign a peace. Well, I quess none got the upper hand, and the war kept on going... Whilst they didn't lose much units, their economy/science took a major hit.... (Sorry )

	05-01-2005 00:06									#24
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quote: Originally posted by peterfharris I often help the small, backward countries fight the larger countries.

I do that to sometimes too. Although, I rarely get an RoP and send units in to block attacks and so forth. I should experiment with that some more.

In my current Monarch-lvl game, (I'm Carthage, on Arch 80 map), the Iroq are a tiny civ being threatened by Americans. Americans score = my score at present. I've been giving foreign aid to the Iroq, but now I may help them a bit more...

	05-01-2005 01:54									#25
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I find it impossible to win without some fighting. I have played some games in which I tried to be paeceful and build only. Inevitably, one of my neighbors gets antsy and attacks me, even if we are on the best of terms.

You need to fight and get a large enough territory to best any AI opponent.

	05-01-2005 04:07									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Remulak I find it impossible to win without some fighting. I have played some games in which I tried to be paeceful and build only. Inevitably, one of my neighbors gets antsy and attacks me, even if we are on the best of terms. You need to fight and get a large enough territory to best any AI opponent.

If you want peace then encourage the AI to fight amongst themselves. As soon as a war breaks out between two AI civs I consider helping the smaller civ. If I give him some tech or money he might use it to buy one or more allies who might then in turn buy an ally. The larger civ may be able to afford allies so a world war might start (involving everyone except you). I have had several recent games in which everyone was fighting multiple opponents and I was the only civ at peace. Of course you need to be doing well enough to afford to help another civ to do this.

My main foreign policy objective is to sow the seeds of hate between the AI civs so they keep fighting, and I want them to hate one another more than they hate me.

I keep giving aid to different civs to maintain a balance of power to stop a KAI emerging and if necessary I join the war to stop the development of a KAI. (Joining a war can backfire (in my last game I joined to prevent a large AI swallowing tiny Egypt, the large AI formed an alliance against me with another civ. That other civ promptly bought an alliance with Egypt! I was giving Egypt techs, money, luxuries and resources! Little Egypt lasted exactly two turns because my SOD's were passing through Egyptian territory at that very moment).

	08-01-2005 00:14									#27
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quote: Originally posted by peterfharris (Joining a war can backfire (in my last game I joined to prevent a large AI swallowing tiny Egypt, the large AI formed an alliance against me with another civ. That other civ promptly bought an alliance with Egypt! I was giving Egypt techs, money, luxuries and resources! Little Egypt lasted exactly two turns because my SOD's were passing through Egyptian territory at that very moment).

Another AI failing, IMO. You would think the Civ3 AI would be good enough to detect your SODs, and prudently decide to avoid hostilties with you, for the sake of good relations.

	08-01-2005 00:26									#28
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Hum, for the sake of good relations, the AI usually "asks" me to donate something to a good cause... his empire.

It's annoying how even the tiny civs, who had their asses handed to them in early game, still come threatening me, sometimes even declaring on me... And someone, who has just signed a peace treaty with me, comes asking for something and then declares, or declares after I ask them to go out of my territory or declare war. Doesn't the AI care about their reputation?

	08-01-2005 00:41									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun And someone, who has just signed a peace treaty with me, comes asking for something and then declares, or declares after I ask them to go out of my territory or declare war. Doesn't the AI care about their reputation?

The AI will declare war if it has gpt payments that make it broke. That could be the cause, if you signed a juicy gpt deal earlier. Also, they will sometimes restart a war shortly after signing peace, but this happens (in my experience) only if you ask them to leave your territory when they are already leaving.

Of course, the longer the game, the lower everyone's reputation. Sometimes the AI re-declaring war soon after signing peace can be a simple act of another enemy paying enough gold...

	08-01-2005 01:09									#30
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Getting somewhat off topic, but Has Marla's map been updated for Conquests?

My current machine can probably handle it now unlike the machine I had when it first came out for Vanilla.

----

On getting a totally peaceful game, if you select AI least agressive it's much more likely [combined with being peaceful yourself] But still each of the AIs needs to get adequate terriagn, luxaries, resources. I've played in an peaceful standard vanilla game, but have not played an all peaceful conquests game. The lowered luxaries in conquests is a major factor.