30-12-2004 07:16									#31
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The neocon agenda is truly wrong. Its their righteousness which is the worst part and blinds them. The arrogance is frightening, as is the link to Christian fundamentalism.

I don't think average Americans really have any idea how hated they are becoming in the world. This is a truly terrible development. All free countries need the US to be strong and respected.

The only parallels I can think of is the way Germans were regarded in the first half of the 20th century, or the Brits in the 19th century. Almost the whole world wanted to see them go down - and eventually they did.

How the Bush Administration trashed the enormous international goodwill after 9/11 just staggers me. One of the biggest foreign policy blunders of all time.

But I can accept it now. We need to make the best of things. Maybe the US can turn it around but the US public will have to come to their senses. Sadly that will probably only happen through large loss of life in Iraq.

	30-12-2004 07:22									#32
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quote: The fanatical neocons are the followers, not the leaders. The leaders are pragmatic thugs, who lead their followers with ideology. Neocon ideology is the new religion of imperial America. It's adherents are the neo-conned. I put both Cheney and Rumsfeld in the leader category. Bush is another thing entirely.

Oh, but of course, because left wing conspiracy theorists are far, far better than right wing conspiracy theorists.

	30-12-2004 08:01									#33
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Unfortunately I don't think it was as simple as stealing the oil. I suspect, and this is only a suspicion, that the morons assumed that a democratic Iraq would pump oil as fast as it could to rebuild, and that only US companies would get the contracts....

A democratic Iraq?? You mean a US appointed government, holding phony elections under US occupation? I wonder who's gonna win the election? I bet it's the pro-US party.

But you're right of course. It is more complicated than just stealing the oil. It's also about geopolitics and about using Iraqi oil money to pay US corporations to rebuild Iraq in the American image. But mostly it's about stealing the oil.

	30-12-2004 08:14									#34
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OK, their (the neocons) idea of a free Iraq, directly copied from the United States the neocons know they have a mandate for (creating it domestically as well as in Iraq), and to hell with local preferences and culture. I was stating their ideation, if you look at my posts since I joined you would know I've been opposed to this administration from the start. And I've buried family members due to their mistakes.

Techumseh, they don't want the oil. They want the power, the control, to reshape the world in the image they see as instrinsically right. That is why they are willing to stomp on the US constitution as well as meddle in the world. They KNOW they are right, and that because they are right they will prevail. And of course this will include US led multinationals getting rich off of local resources, with a pro-large business agenda without silly things like workers rights, environmental regulation, etc.

They do not understand the old conservative values that it is process and institutions that make a country free and democratic. My country has done alot of things about which I am not proud, just as it has done things for which I am proud. What frightens me is that there is nothing this administration has done which fills me with pride. For the first time in my life I have been embarressed to be an American, or at least to be represented to the world by this administration. I have always worked against them, and politiced and supported local elections as best I could, but sadly that's not enough in today's disUnited States.

	30-12-2004 13:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh ... But you're right of course. It is more complicated than just stealing the oil. It's also about geopolitics and about using Iraqi oil money to pay US corporations to rebuild Iraq in the American image. But mostly it's about stealing the oil.

Of course it was about the oil, but here's the thing... Of all the corrupt, undemocratic, civil rights abusing middle eastern states, Iraqis had the closest to an American (or European) lifestyle under Hussein. As long as you didn't rock the boat, you could have a good consumerist lifestyle and if you played politics correctly you could do as well as your western corporate counterparts, at least prior to Bush I's war.

Ironically, the US Christian fundys have pretty well guaranteed that Muslim fundys will run Iraq, maybe not after the election, but after the ensuing civil war.

	30-12-2004 13:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Techumseh, they don't want the oil. They want the power, the control, to reshape the world in the image they see as instrinsically right. That is why they are willing to stomp on the US constitution as well as meddle in the world.

They want the oil also. In fact, I see it as geopolitical adventurism, which is a bid to establish US presence in a strategically important area. It's important because of oil, otherwise it'd be just a forsaken land.

	30-12-2004 13:24									#37
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You're right Unc, there's plenty of irony in this mess.

Shawnmmcc, I think you're dead wrong. Wars like this aren't fought over ideas. Or for ego. They're fought for economic reasons. Money. Billions and trillions of US dollars. The ideology is simply the justification. The intellectual rationalization, if you will. This was true in the Reformation, and it's true today.

	30-12-2004 13:43									#38
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And I sure don't agree with the idea that old fashioned conservative values would have prevented this mess, either. US policy is determined by it's "economic" interests, far more than by the specific politics of it's administration of the day.

I just saw in interview with Sen. Hillary Clinton, who advocated more troops for the Iraq War. Need I mention John Kerry? The Democrats are equally culpable.

The US has a long history of invasions and coups around the world under both Republican and Democrat administrations. Iraq, Indonesia, Iran, Vietnam, Chile, Nicaragua, Cambodia, Pakistan, Greece, Turkey, Guatamala, Panama, Zaire, Grenada, Panama, Australia.... the list goes on and on.

It's not the neo-cons specifically, though they are the worst of a bad lot. It's the US ruling circles in general.

	30-12-2004 13:45									#39
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quote: Originally posted by el freako ... and here we see Giancarlo's posting style in it's most minimalist, efficient form. First insult someone. Then assert the opposite of what they are saying whilst providing no counter-arguments Giancarlo I salute you for perfecting your style

And I salute you for being and ignorant little man who doesn't know anything about the reality. You have your degree, but that doesn't gain you any sense of competence or realization of the facts. The counter argument is this: there are always logical contradictions in AH's argument.

	30-12-2004 13:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh You're right Unc, there's plenty of irony in this mess. Shawnmmcc, I think you're dead wrong. Wars like this aren't fought over ideas. Or for ego. They're fought for economic reasons. Money. Billions and trillions of US dollars. The ideology is simply the justification. The intellectual rationalization, if you will. This was true in the Reformation, and it's true today.

The rap against the neocons is that they are driving policy for idealistic reasons, with economic and other consequences being damned.

	30-12-2004 14:55									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo And I salute you for being and ignorant little man who doesn't know anything about the reality.

Careful little one, carry on like that and your lollypop will be taken away.

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You have your degree

What makes you think that?
I never said I had a degree in anything - why do you assume so?

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo but that doesn't gain you any sense of competence or realization of the facts.

Well the difference between you and I is that I believe in what I say and am willing to put my money where my mouth is - whereas you are too chickenshit to stand by your beliefs when there is anything at stake.

But then again children with no experience of what the adult world is like often act like that so I suppose it's in character

	30-12-2004 15:24									#42
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quote: Originally posted by el freako What makes you think that? I never said I had a degree in anything - why do you assume so?

Some around here told me you had a degree in economics.

quote: Well the difference between you and I is that I believe in what I say and am willing to put my money where my mouth is - whereas you are too chickenshit to stand by your beliefs when there is anything at stake. But then again children with no experience of what the adult world is like often act like that so I suppose it's in character

You don't know anything. That's the difference between me and you. I know a lot more then you. You also need to shut up and grow up.

	30-12-2004 15:44									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You don't know anything. That's the difference between me and you. I know a lot more then you. You also need to shut up and grow up.

Well if that's true then put your money where your mouth is - my bet is still open to you.

Put up or shut up - unless you're still chickenshit that is.

	30-12-2004 15:46									#44
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Ming!

My thread is being Fezzed!

	30-12-2004 17:52									#45
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You're the chickenshit, el freakalot.

AH, your threads collapse the minute you post them because they are pathetic trolls. Just as your attempted bashing of the US in the tsunami thread where I ripped you apart.

	30-12-2004 17:57									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You're the chickenshit, el freakalot.

Really?
I note that it is you who lacks the courage to risk anything to back up their claims.
Whereas I am prepared to risk 'any amount up to $10,000' for them.

Giancarlo - blind to facts, blind to logic and blind to the meaning of courage.

I wonder why you post here so much - i mean do you enjoy being a laughingstock?

	30-12-2004 18:10									#47
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YOu are the ****ing laughing stock. You are an unknown poster who hardly posts around here. I have a name and a reputation that is long lasting.. it is a good reputation as of late as I provided some good responses to the election in Ukraine (read those).

YOu're a ****ing fact denier, a liar, a incompetent yellow coward.

	30-12-2004 18:18									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo YOu are the ****ing laughing stock. You are an unknown poster who hardly posts around here.

I think the phrase you are looking for is hardly spams

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I have a name and a reputation that is long lasting.

Yup, you do:

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Ming! My thread is being Fezzed!

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo it is a good reputation as of late as I provided some good responses to the election in Ukraine (read those).

I agree that your posts there are significantly above your average standard (indeed I was pleasantly suprised by them).
But, due to the reputation you have gained here as Giancarlo or as Fez it will take an awful lot more responses like them to permanently change people's idea's of you.
And you're not helping yourself with your usual 'insult the poster whilst ignoring their arguments and putting forward none of my own' - as can be seen below:

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo YOu're a ****ing fact denier, a liar, a incompetent yellow coward.

Show me (or anyone else for that matter) one fact I have denied, show one instance of be being incompetent or cowardly.

You can't, can you?
Awww poor liddle Giancarlo - it's a shame when the real world isn't like the one in your head isn't it?

	30-12-2004 18:22									#49
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Call me by my real name.

I'm not going to deny mistakes I have made in the past. When I was younger, I was a bit of a spammer here and a bit of a nuisance. But I have tried an effort in improving my image.. the Ukraine election thread was the first major effort.

But hell, you insulted me too. And you keep insulting me. What am I supposed to be? Reasonable? You are incompetent in your arguments and I'm not going to back down from that statement.

	30-12-2004 18:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Call me by my real name.

I have, I just mentioned what you used to call yourself

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I'm not going to deny mistakes I have made in the past. When I was younger, I was a bit of a spammer here and a bit of a nuisance. But I have tried an effort in improving my image.. the Ukraine election thread was the first major effort.

Fair enough, if this is the start of a more rational Giancarlo then maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt.

Hang on, I did give you the benefit of the doubt, but then you posted this:

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Alexander Horse.. you are truly pathetic. Rumsfeld should stay.

Which was slipping back into your old posting style of an insult followed an assertion with nothing to back it up.
You could have said why you think Rumsfeld should stay and it would have made your post more than childish noise - but you didn't did you?
If you are really sincere about changing then you should thank me for pointing out when you slip back into your old ways

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo But hell, you insulted me too. And you keep insulting me. What am I supposed to be? Reasonable?

If you find a frank description of your posting style insulting then all I can recommend is that you change it.

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You are incompetent in your arguments and I'm not going to back down from that statement.

But I notice that you're not going to back up that statement with anything - just saying something doesn't make it so, I wonder if you will ever learn this.

	30-12-2004 18:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Shawnmmcc, I think you're dead wrong. Wars like this aren't fought over ideas. Or for ego. They're fought for economic reasons. Money. Billions and trillions of US dollars. The ideology is simply the justification. The intellectual rationalization, if you will. This was true in the Reformation, and it's true today.

You are crediting H sapiens with far too much common sense.

	30-12-2004 18:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You are crediting H sapiens with far too much common sense.

Ain't that the truth!

	30-12-2004 18:35									#53
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Hang on, I did give you the benefit of the doubt, but then you posted this:

Well I have to make an effort but it is oh so tempting to go after the troll master, AH, himself. Don't you agree? You are still going after me.. maybe because you like me.. who knows.. J/K

quote: But I notice that you're not going to back up that statement with anything - just saying something doesn't make it so, I wonder if you will ever learn this.

Well as far as Rumsfeld goes, it is more towards personal feelings. I do feel he is competent for the job he holds and that he can do his job without anything rendering him incapable of it. He may want to tone down his blunt style though.

And hell he's a good poet.

	30-12-2004 18:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Well I have to make an effort but it is oh so tempting to go after the troll master, AH, himself. Don't you agree? You are still going after me.. maybe because you like me.. who knows.. J/K

Well sometimes I experience worries about you that border on the paternal - weird I know
You also make it far too easy to have a go at you as well - I should learn to ignore more too

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Well as far as Rumsfeld goes, it is more towards personal feelings. I do feel he is competent for the job he holds and that he can do his job without anything rendering him incapable of it. He may want to tone down his blunt style though.

All those are debatable to a certain extent - for example his insistance on low force levels for Iraq has made the post-war situation much more difficult.
I wouldn't claim he is incapable of doing his job - whether he is the best man for it though is another matter, I also think he should have done the honorable thing after Abu Ghraib and resigned as I think it was his style of leadership which made those abuses possible (and surely the buck stops with him anyways?)

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo And hell he's a good poet.

I must admit that i'm not very good at appreciating poetry - I guess it comes from not being an artistic person at all.
Though I liked the humility displayed in "Confessions" and "The Unknown" is good as well.
"Happenings" sounds a lot like someone trying to ignore something by denying it's existance rather than arguing why it is false - something that (as you are no doubt aware) doesn't sit well with me.

	30-12-2004 19:01									#55
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@Fez: I believe your reputation is unshakeable.

	30-12-2004 19:03									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @Fez: I believe your reputation is unshakeable.

Anyone can change themselves, given the will to do so and enough time.

	30-12-2004 19:04									#57
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quote: Originally posted by el freako All those are debatable to a certain extent - for example his insistance on low force levels for Iraq has made the post-war situation much more difficult. I wouldn't claim he is incapable of doing his job - whether he is the best man for it though is another matter, I also think he should have done the honorable thing after Abu Ghraib and resigned as I think it was his style of leadership which made those abuses possible (and surely the buck stops with him anyways?)

Most Defense Secretaries leave after the first four years... just because they feel worn out because it is a high demand job even during peace time. I don't know why Rumsfeld hasn't left, I would believe he is tired after helping direct two wars.

	30-12-2004 19:26									#58
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Anyone can change themselves, given the will to do so and enough time.

Stop trying- it can only end with you getting banned for a short time.

Fezbot is beyond reach- you are only wasting bandwidth.

	30-12-2004 19:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Stop trying- it can only end with you getting banned for a short time. Fezbot is beyond reach- you are only wasting bandwidth.

GeBot is going after me once again... the little troll from Honduras...

	30-12-2004 19:33									#60
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God, you can;t even recognize flags