29-12-2004 06:59									#1
	"war in Iraq can still be won" Yay! - wait a minute - can still be won? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is what Rumsfeld told US troops on Christmas Eve.

Link is here

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=7177634

This is a striking downshift in rhetoric from one of the Bush Administration Hawks and a main architect of the war.

First we were told the war was won, remember Bush's infamous "Mission Accomplished" stunt?

Then we were told combat ops were winding down - Baath dead enders and regime die hards were to blame for ongoing violence. Rumsfeld ran hardest with that spin, which is all it ever was.

Then we were told the war was being won - the latest time this was trotted out was after the Fallujah "empty bag" fiasco - witness Bush Cheney foxnews and other blowhards...foreign terrorists were to blame. No Al Qaeda there before the war boys!

Then we told the war will be won after a long fight - witness testimony to US Senate from senior military officers. Time to blame the Sunni minority for fighting because they were losing power....yeah right.....foreign occupation of course has nothing to do with it.

Now we are being told the war "can still" be won. WTF? Did I miss something here? This right after a mess hall was bombed to beeJesus and the US suffered its largest single loss of life. But fear not - we're winning!


This all raises a question for me. Is the US public being prepared for an unseemly withdrawal as soon as possible after the Iraqi elections in January 2005? You are free now - congratulations and goodbye! Or are we hunkering down for a long war which will draw in draftees?

Think about it - how is the US going to find the troops to sustain a long occupation? They are having trouble maintaining troop numbers now - stop loss, extending tours and even sending amputees back there.

It's Vietnam with palm trees. The only thing missing is the draft. I hope some of you young US Chickenhawks can march and shoot straight

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 29-12-2004 at 07:15

	29-12-2004 07:52									#2
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AH, don't you wonder if the presence of the US troops might be doing as much to fuel the insurrection as it is doing to stabilise the country? I don 't understand why pulling troops out soon after the elections would necessarily be a bad thing. The insurrection appears to mainly be about popular opposition to being occupied by foreigners in which case no amount or duration of forgien troop presence will ever be able to make the country safe again.

Bush screwed up badly. Most reasonable people saw this disaster coming as soon as he resolved to invade Iraq. Perhaps pulling the troops out is the only thing that can allow the damage to heal.

	29-12-2004 08:23									#3
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Oy... you wonder why oh why does Rumsfeld still have his job? He always leads to bad PR for Bush.

	29-12-2004 08:32									#4
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Obviously there's only one group responsible for this mess-

THE LIBERAL MEDIA!

They didn't have to report what he said!

	29-12-2004 08:45									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oy... you wonder why oh why does Rumsfeld still have his job? He always leads to bad PR for Bush.

	29-12-2004 10:09									#6
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Rumsfeld keeps his job so he can make insightful analysis like this

quote: "This is a tough situation here in Iraq. It is dangerous, people are being wounded, people are being killed."

Brilliant Don.

Isn't it time this guy was retired to Maimi?

	29-12-2004 10:11									#7
	Re: "war in Iraq can still be won" Yay! - wait a minute - can still be won? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse It's Vietnam with palm trees.

Wait a minute, Vietnam had palm trees. I'm sure you meant Vietnam with dry heat.

	29-12-2004 10:32									#8
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Vietnam with camels?

	29-12-2004 10:38									#9
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Is Michael the Great still around?

	29-12-2004 10:40									#10
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Yes. He's watching you.

	29-12-2004 10:40									#11
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not lately - he's working for government - which makes me wonder why he doesn't here all day

	29-12-2004 10:43									#12
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They're losing. Lot's of overtime.

	29-12-2004 10:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Isn't it time this guy was retired to Maimi?

I don't want him anywhere near me.

	29-12-2004 10:52									#14
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh They're losing. Lot's of overtime.

so true - 9/11 has been wonderful employment wise if you are in government.

	29-12-2004 13:08									#15
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Most Americans want Rumsfeld gone

I think it's time for him to leave

When your coach isn't doing the job it's time for a new one.

	29-12-2004 14:57									#16
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Alexander Horse.. you are truly pathetic. Rumsfeld should stay.

	29-12-2004 15:19									#17
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... and here we see Giancarlo's posting style in it's most minimalist, efficient form.

First insult someone.
Then assert the opposite of what they are saying whilst providing no counter-arguments


Giancarlo I salute you for perfecting your style

	29-12-2004 15:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Alexander Horse.. you are truly pathetic. Rumsfeld should stay.

*pats little Giancarlo on the head*

	29-12-2004 18:09									#19
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Most government employees earn salary. I wish I worked by the hour.

I can only imagine what 6 moths of 24 hour days would yeild.

	29-12-2004 18:12									#20
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Rumsfeld is the one cabinet member who really, really needs to leave.

	29-12-2004 19:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Alexander Horse.. you are truly pathetic. Rumsfeld should stay.

You just made my day, Fez.

	29-12-2004 19:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oy... you wonder why oh why does Rumsfeld still have his job? He always leads to bad PR for Bush.

I thought the word was they're gonna let him stay through the Iraqi elections in January, and see how that goes.

If it goes at all poorly, I think hes history. McCain, Bill Kristol and the Weekly Standard, and Trent Lott are all calling for his ouster, and Richard Lugar and John Warner are none too happy with him.

	30-12-2004 05:34									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo AH, don't you wonder if the presence of the US troops might be doing as much to fuel the insurrection as it is doing to stabilise the country? I don 't understand why pulling troops out soon after the elections would necessarily be a bad thing. The insurrection appears to mainly be about popular opposition to being occupied by foreigners in which case no amount or duration of forgien troop presence will ever be able to make the country safe again.

I agree - the best thing that could happen would be for the US coalition to withdraw asap.

	30-12-2004 05:55									#24
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I hope Rumsfeld - OK, let's be careful here I've avoided being banned so far - gets to live long enough to see all the documentaries about just how incompetent he was. I also hope he gets to watch as a flame in I believe it is the eighth circle, I need to break out my Dante. Yep, eighth circle, bolgia eight.

	30-12-2004 05:57									#25
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I thought the word was they're gonna let him stay through the Iraqi elections in January, and see how that goes. If it goes at all poorly, I think hes history. McCain, Bill Kristol and the Weekly Standard, and Trent Lott are all calling for his ouster, and Richard Lugar and John Warner are none too happy with him.

And with all that support against him, I think it'd be suicide to back Rummy anymore.

	30-12-2004 06:21									#26
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Rumsfeld is the sacrificial goat for the failed scheme of the US ruling circles to steal Iraq's oil.

	30-12-2004 06:35									#27
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Techumseh, I suspect while that may have been indirectly on people like Cheney's agenda, you don't understand the genuine neocons. They truly believe in their righteousness, that they have received the most recent pronouncements from on high, and that of course everyone must agree with them. Give me an simple incompetent to a incompetent fanatic any day.

	30-12-2004 06:43									#28
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For some reason, Giancarlo reminds me of a certain character in The Quiet American...

	30-12-2004 06:52									#29
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The fanatical neocons are the followers, not the leaders. The leaders are pragmatic thugs, who lead their followers with ideology. Neocon ideology is the new religion of imperial America. It's adherents are the neo-conned.

I put both Cheney and Rumsfeld in the leader category. Bush is another thing entirely.

	30-12-2004 07:13									#30
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Unfortunately I don't think it was as simple as stealing the oil. I suspect, and this is only a suspicion, that the morons assumed that a democratic Iraq would pump oil as fast as it could to rebuild, and that only US companies would get the contracts. That way they would profit doubly. More of the "open arms" (as in we don't need troops for order, they will welcome us with open arms) incompetentcy.

They forgot about India and China, and also made one of the greatest mistakes any military planner can make. They assumed lack of planning on their oppositions part. Saddam did an excellent job planning for the insurgency, the only rational opposition he could hope for at the time. Oil pipelines are large, fragile targets.

As I said, eighth circle, bolgia eight.