29-12-2004 11:20									#1
	Best Civ Advantages--Again Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So this poll probably has already happened...numerous times, but lets get some recent data...

YOU CAN VOTE FOR THREE

So vote for the three advantages you think are the best...

True, they won't be ranked, but I think we all know that industrious will get first, it's second and third and fourth that matter...

	29-12-2004 11:57									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

1. If you want us to vote for three, allow multiple choice.
2. Are you kidding? Agricultural will be first by a long shot.

	29-12-2004 12:45									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Yup, agriculture is the new industrialism.

Seafaring can be very strong too on certain maps and in the hand of a human player.

	29-12-2004 18:14									#4
	Support Apolyton

I doubt Industrious will make it to the first place. That was true for PtW but not in C3C.

It really depends on the level you're playing at, the type of victory condition you seek and the type of map you're playing. But overall, I'd go for agricultural which is a fine trait no matter the difficulty level.

	29-12-2004 19:09									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yeah, I consider Industrious to be a rather weak trait. Maybe 5th or 6th.

	29-12-2004 22:29									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well it is map and game dependant to me. Ag is not all that great if you have no rivers and not much land.

I went with commercial.

	29-12-2004 22:39									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Expansionist. Even if you start on a small island, you will know about it quickly. Build three scouts from the start, and you have a good chance of getting a free settler, and normally know the layout of the entire continent by turn 40.

	30-12-2004 00:28									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah, sorry about that on the poll, I swear I made it so you can vote for three, but oh well, atleast we'll have some new data...

As for agricultural, I wouldn't doubt it is a strong advantage. But I would put industrious above it. Then again, it all depends on your playing strategy, which is why they have 31 civs...

I voted for commercial. Never mind the extra gold you get in cities and metros. That doesn't help a lot. The less corruption, however, while I don't know the percentage, is always helpful, and the lower costs for commercial improvements, I believe, are worth it. Cheaper markets, banks, stock exchanges, harbors, airports, and commercial docks is a pretty good advantage. Having the ability to set up a nice trade network quickly is very helpful, especially if you have island cities or need to trade for crucial resources like iron that may be on a different continent...

As for second, I would say industrial. Building roads in one turn gives you a substantial tech lead (unless on emperor or higher) in the early game, because of the extra commerce that most civs won't have. Also, faster irrigation and mining allows for better and faster infastructure. While these advantages won't hold much weight in the industrial and modern ages, I see here at apolyton most of you don't play the game that far...

Third would go to agricultural, for the same reasons as industrious. Having extra food, and therefore extra growth and faster development, gives a nice lead in multiple areas such as military and economic power, and technology...

Fourth would probably be scientific. The free tech is nice, but not crucial. However, add up the turns it saves you. The free tech in the medieval ages, depending on map size, might have taken you 20 turns to get. The free industrial age tech would probably take 10, and the same for the modern age tech. That's forty free turns of research. Again, this is only beneficial to you if the game lasts that long. Note that libraries and universities are cheaper with this advantage, so libraries would be cheaper than temples, and therefore cultural boosts would come faster for later cities...

Personally, I like scientific and commercial the best, because of all the cheap improvements you get...

	30-12-2004 02:05									#9
	Got spare money?

Commercial doesn't actually give you any cheap buildings. It gives you a reduction in corruption and extra commerce from city tiles. Which is enough for me. I love that trait.

Scientific gives you discounts on 3 buildings (library, university, research lab).

The killer building discount civ is Babylon. Temples, Cathedrals and the Scientific buildings. Or Germany (Mil/Sci), with 1/2 cost barracks, harbors, walls, airports, civil defense (and coastal fortresses, but those are utterly pointless).

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 10:59									#10
	Put an end to popups!

That, I don't believe, is true, and here is why.

Look at the civ editor, and go to the improvements and wonders tab. In the bottom left corner is a box with all the civ advantages. Most improvements have one or two of these advantages flagged. Just as barracks have militaristic flagged, markets have commercial flagged. From past experiences, this appears to be where improvement costs are halved...

By the way, I don't believe harbors and airports are cheaper for militaristic civs. They're not flagged, and I never have noticed them being cheaper when playing rome or germany...

	30-12-2004 13:26									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The commercial traits does not give any cheaper buildings. If it did, I'd put it right near the top. As it is, I think it's one of the weaker traits.

	30-12-2004 13:32									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Commy That, I don't believe, is true, and here is why. Look at the civ editor, and go to the improvements and wonders tab. In the bottom left corner is a box with all the civ advantages. Most improvements have one or two of these advantages flagged. Just as barracks have militaristic flagged, markets have commercial flagged. From past experiences, this appears to be where improvement costs are halved... By the way, I don't believe harbors and airports are cheaper for militaristic civs. They're not flagged, and I never have noticed them being cheaper when playing rome or germany...

Play a game then and test it.

Play a game as a COM civ, and then as a non-COM civ... Markets cost 100 shields for both. It's hard-coded and has nothing to do with what wonders and improvements are flagged. Those only affect what wonders give GAs and what the AI likes to build.

	30-12-2004 15:11									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I have a hard time voting for 3 here

but I really like starting near rivers

there have been too many times where I have been burned by no nearby freshwater (sometimes none on my island even)

Jon Miller

	30-12-2004 15:15									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

scientific can be nice because of the science leaders

industrial is nice for the 1 production early and faster workers

miliataristic is ok for military leaders

religious is nice becuase of changing governments easier (also is good for happiness)

comercial and seafaring are good because you start next to the sea (also a really nice position)

my favorite two are commercial or seaferying and agriculture (makes sureI have access to both the sea and fresh water)

I consider those two about the same (commercial and seafaring)

so third would probably still be religious, although recently I have started being more interested in scientific

Jon Miller

	30-12-2004 19:47									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Commy That, I don't believe, is true, and here is why. Look at the civ editor, and go to the improvements and wonders tab. In the bottom left corner is a box with all the civ advantages. Most improvements have one or two of these advantages flagged. Just as barracks have militaristic flagged, markets have commercial flagged. From past experiences, this appears to be where improvement costs are halved... By the way, I don't believe harbors and airports are cheaper for militaristic civs. They're not flagged, and I never have noticed them being cheaper when playing rome or germany...

Sorry, but you're wrong. As Trip says, test it out. Marketplaces are 100 shields for every civ in the game. Banks also have the same cost for all, etc. Just like granaries are *not* cheaper for Agricultural or Expansionist civs. Aqueducts are for Ag, though

Commercial gives zero building discounts. It's all about corruption, commerce, and of course the starting tech (alphabet, yum!).

Militaristic does give 1/2 cost harbors and airports, AFAIK. Harbors seem a little wierd because Seafaring civs also get 1/2 cost harbors, but it's because you need harbors to build veteran sea units, you see. Airports I'm nearly positive about - although I haven't played a game out that far recently.

-Arrian

	30-12-2004 21:29									#16
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis The commercial traits does not give any cheaper buildings. If it did, I'd put it right near the top. As it is, I think it's one of the weaker traits.

The OCN boost added to starting with Alpha make it a near must for games played Deity and Sid on maps of large or huge.

You almost cannot be first to Philo at Sid without starting with Alpha. You can get the GL without a beeline to Phil, but it is very iffy.

The GL is very useful to me in that type of game as it lets me stop researching and save cash for support and upgrades.

I would surely agree it is not as useful as you drop down levels and use maps of standard or smaller. This is why I say the traits are very dependant upon the game settings.

	30-12-2004 22:45									#17
	Support Apolyton

Oh don't get me wrong - commercial isn't a terrible trait. The OCN boost is nice, starting with alpha is also nice (although I think the "first to philo" thing is somewhat overrated). It's just that I can make a case that almost any other trait is better than commercial (militaristic being the exception).

Now if it did give cheaper marketplaces, it'd be so good as to almost be broken.

	30-12-2004 23:28									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Traits are best use to meet your goals. I recently read a post about expansionist and did a test on it.

I went with a demi game on a large map as America. I soon abandon the game as not being fun. I was get getting settlers and advance cities and lots of techs.

I even popped Philo and got the current tech free, it was just insane.

The usefulness of the free tech is also level dependant. At levels that you would expect to be the tech leader from the start or nearly so, it is not all that functional.

If you intend to do constant research it is not all that great, such as Demi. It is useful in games you expect to trail a very long time or maybe even the whole game.

If nothing else it is a small brake on the AI research race and that is what I am looking for in those games. That is another reason why I would go with no huts. To reduce the tech boom and make it take a bit longer to get to the next age.

It is the middle age that is so scary for me, especially the later part of it. Once the GL is obsolete, I could face an enemy with much better units than I have.

The more time I have to prepare for that the better. I need to get my roads up and my defenses.

	01-01-2005 12:47									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Sorry about the cheap commercial improvements thing...but anyway...you can always change the rules and make it so the GL never goes obsolete. Think of the possibilities. A successful diplomatic victory on Sid level...possibly a space race victory with strategic trading and diplomacy...

	02-01-2005 02:02									#20
	Remove this text

Only one choice allowed, so Agricuture is a non-brainer.
Like playing a full level of difficulty easier.

	02-01-2005 02:03									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'd probably rank Seafaring 2nd and Expanionist 3rd.

Last edited by joncnunn on 02-01-2005 at 02:08

	02-01-2005 11:45									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I really wish I could let you vote for three, heck, I'll start a new thread...