03-01-2005 20:57									#31
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Well, look at all of Firaxis' more recent games... SimGolf, Pirates, even Civ 3 in a way all have a general cartoony stylish feel. As a review I read earlier said about Pirates, it's not a dark game (which it easily could have been) but aims to get to the alure of being a Pirate in a lighthearted way. It's not a game meant to actually mimic reality. Sid seems to like that trend very much, and it wouldn't surprise me if Civ 4 were the same way for that reason.

	03-01-2005 22:24									#32
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I definitely want a serious game. I did not like the caricature leaders that we got in civ3. if they want animated leaders then give us serious looking leaders or use portraits or paintings or something. The game had a potentially very good diplomacy model that was ruined by the caricature leaders and the ridiculous one-liners.

	03-01-2005 23:33									#33
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Well, part of the reason for the units looking like that was because of having bright colors to tell units apart more easier. This it had success in.

	04-01-2005 02:21									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Well, look at all of Firaxis' more recent games... SimGolf, Pirates, even Civ 3 in a way all have a general cartoony stylish feel. As a review I read earlier said about Pirates, it's not a dark game (which it easily could have been) but aims to get to the alure of being a Pirate in a lighthearted way. It's not a game meant to actually mimic reality. Sid seems to like that trend very much, and it wouldn't surprise me if Civ 4 were the same way for that reason.

exactly why I am so concerned for cIV.

It's like the Batman movies, each one got worse than the last.

Firaxis need to do a radical change, they need to go back to their roots (Civ1, Civ2). update Civ2 to cIV, not Civ3 to cIV

	04-01-2005 02:35									#35
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Civ 1 had the most silly looks so far. The units looked even more ridiculous than the ones on the recent CIV screenies. So did the terrain, and so did other things. Sure, you could argue that graphics back then couldn't be better. But they could have been "darker" - they just weren't. As long as it is only graphics, I don't mind. If the graphics are too childish, I'm sure there will be enough people willing to do more "grown up" stuff for us (like realistic terrain mods ).

My concern is only with the game complexity. There isn't enough info so far, IMO, to talk about it. Complaining about things we simply don't know, now that would be silly, wouldn't it?



Actually, update SMAC to CIV.

	04-01-2005 15:16									#36
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Okay, I am not specifically talking about the graphics of Civ, I am talking about the complexity, depthness and seriousness of the gameplay itself. I'm not complaining about what I don't know, I'm concerned for cIV's fate, and I have every right to be considering Firaxis line of previous games.

	04-01-2005 16:19									#37
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I find Civ3 to be the most complex, and difficult of the whole series. I like SMAC for it's looks and love to detail, true. But if the challenge is considered, Civ3 wins by a large margin. I'd like the dark looks of SMAC, but I don't think they'll make it to CIV, because the Civ games always had something silly about them. Still, I don't think the complexity will be lost because of this.

A thing people seem to confuse is streamlining, and simplicity. Just because it's easy to issue complex orders, doesn't make them simple, or easy to plan. MOO3 can show you the way. A very complex game, but with great controls that allow a fluid game without excess micromanagement. Doing this in CIV would be quite an achievement.

	04-01-2005 18:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 MOO3 can show you the way. A very complex game, but with great controls that allow a fluid game without excess micromanagement. Doing this in CIV would be quite an achievement.

I really really hope they don't listen to you...

MOO3

	04-01-2005 18:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Alex I really really hope they don't listen to you... MOO3

Hey, I didn't like the graphics either. Nor did I enjoy the crappy space battles. Other things were messed up as well. But the way you could control the whole infrastructure/economy/military build up without too much MM - that was great IMO.

	04-01-2005 22:18									#40
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You know, only three year olds would decide merely from the graphics and interface of a game whether it is serious.

	04-01-2005 22:44									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 But the way you could control the whole infrastructure/economy/military build up without too much MM - that was great IMO.

Except for the fact that if you did not fine tune your ship designs constantly, the AI would build 200 troopships that you couldn't use.

	04-01-2005 22:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Alex I really really hope they don't listen to you... MOO3

There is a difference between serious and complex. I think a game can be serious without being super complex. For example, Rome:Total War. It's a serious empire building game that is not overly complex.

	05-01-2005 00:22									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Except for the fact that if you did not fine tune your ship designs constantly, the AI would build 200 troopships that you couldn't use.

By referring to MOO3, I meant this screen, which gives great control over the empire, without doing anything to each planet alone. Like I said, other things about the game were far from great.

	05-01-2005 01:03									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 By referring to MOO3, I meant this screen, which gives great control over the empire, without doing anything to each planet alone. Like I said, other things about the game were far from great.

You see, the concept of less micromanagement is really good, but that very screen you posted shows how a game can be deep enough to the point of being inane: I don't want to play a spreadsheet.

	05-01-2005 13:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Alex You see, the concept of less micromanagement is really good, but that very screen you posted shows how a game can be deep enough to the point of being inane: I don't want to play a spreadsheet.

Civ3 is deeper, especially on huge maps. The difference is, the crappy interface makes you micromanage each darned build queue, each worker, and each citizen, instead of setting up all in one place. Sorry, but that's no fun to me. I'd rather have the "spreadsheet" in place.

	06-01-2005 00:38									#46
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I dont think civ3 is so much for 3 year olds but its too simplified, I dont understand this as details would have been easier for the player. Like has been said, with a city list to easily manage many cities at once... like CtP.

	06-01-2005 07:54									#47
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Stop trolling Tassadar.

	06-01-2005 15:15									#48
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SMAC is not a civilization series.

And Civ2 is not worth playing anymore.

There is hope for cIV, but very little.

	07-01-2005 00:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py SMAC is not a civilization series. And Civ2 is not worth playing anymore.

WHY?

	07-01-2005 01:19									#50
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These days he just seems very pent-up with hatred towards everyone and everything.

	07-01-2005 02:38									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson WHY?

Because Civ3 is in most regards better than Civ2.

	12-01-2005 21:42									#52
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I agree, they should start making the game more complex... if they created a game based on Civ and SMAC it would be great... SMAC has the complexity that Civ needs and Civ is about Earths history... mixing those two games would be as perfect as it gets for the time being

	13-01-2005 01:00									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Because Civ3 is in most regards better than Civ2.

1) No it is not

2) Civ2 has great scenarios. My love for that game comes from playing them, not the original game, mostly

	13-01-2005 01:27									#54
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That's your personal opinion Herresson.

But I spoke of a general vote.


I personally don't know which of the two is better.

	13-01-2005 02:59									#55
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With millions of copies being sold, why not create a simple and a complex version?

I think Civilization has an brilliant design feature, it starts off simple and as technology improves, becomes more complex, so players don't get overwhelmed when they start. If they want to emphasize it to the newbies, then they should mention it prominantly in the book that comes with the CD.

	13-01-2005 03:05									#56
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But in Civ3 they killed trade. That limited it to little more than a wargame preceded by an exploration exploration and building phase.

To me that dumbs the game down.

	13-01-2005 03:15									#57
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After reading these posts, I'll probably drop my allegence to civ. The only major improvement from civ1 to civ3 was making the evolution of military in civ2 more continuous. (Once you could produce legions and catapults in civ1 you could take over the world) .I'll miss the global and historical features of civ, though.

	13-01-2005 03:15									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Agreed...the realism and sophistication is important to me.

well said indeed old chap

	13-01-2005 23:33									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow But in Civ3 they killed trade. That limited it to little more than a wargame preceded by an exploration exploration and building phase. To me that dumbs the game down.

Very good point. I've played Civ since 1992. In Civ3 it seems as though it's more difficult to play as a peaceful builder civ. It's geared towards being a wargame...look at all the units. Look at the C3C box--it's got maces and swords and axes on it. I hope Civ4 takes into account ALL playstyles. After all, Civ4 can either be "civ" or it can be "warcraft" or "dune2". Which will it be?.....