29-12-2004 15:06									#1
	Civilization is not for 3 year olds. Increase the size of your Attachments

Please don't make cIV a kids game.

You (Firaxis) keep making all your games childrens games.

Civ is not really a kids game. Yes, I played Civ1 when I was 10, but if it were all cartoonie, etc, then I would never have taken history, politics, econimics, etc seriously.

What MAKES Civ FUN is the seriousness of it. That's what its about. We want to think we are building a civilization strong enough to take on other civilizations, we want real issues, real life obstacles. We want to feel like an actual leader with actual responsibilities.

	29-12-2004 15:29									#2
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Hear, hear.

two extremes, CivIII vs EUII. CivIV should be somewhere in between.

	29-12-2004 15:59									#3
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Is anybody really afraid that cIV will be a kid game?
c'mon, that's not going to happen this millenium.

	29-12-2004 20:59									#4
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Agreed...the realism and sophistication is important to me.

	29-12-2004 22:33									#5
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Cartoony: better than graphically violent.
Seriousness: not in every way.
Sophistication: absolutely.

	30-12-2004 00:13									#6
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No! I liked C3.

	30-12-2004 03:41									#7
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I like Civ three, but gloss over alot of things that made a major difference in real history.

Remember the uproar when slavery was added? So really can we blame them?

	30-12-2004 04:06									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Remember the uproar when slavery was added? So really can we blame them?

Come on, do we really want a sanitised game? I recall reading recently that Civ is used educationally. Its not a comprehensive encyclopaedia of the world but how are people expected to learn about unpleasantness in history if this game continues to follow the trend of appealing to certain demographics in certain countries?

At least Darwin's Theory of Evolution is still there!

	30-12-2004 09:30									#9
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I want a sanitized game. That's what first attracted me to it. I won't complain about other games being less sanitized for people who want it that way, but Civ is special in this attribute. I don't know of any other history games that are this way. Galciv doesn't fill the same space. Civ is a game. Unpleasantness is unpleasant. There are other ways to learn about unpleasantness. Now I realize I don't want realism as much as I thought I did. I still want some kinds of realism, but not every kind.

	30-12-2004 13:07									#10
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I think this poll is very badly worded and doesn't fit the thread title.
My daughter is 6 and she plays civ3 (I have to read her the text as she is only in the process of learning to read). I want civ4 to make such a thing possible. If anything, it can help her learn history (or get interested in it, which will help her later).
So serious means what? We don't need cartoony characters, agreed. What my daughter likes is there is some terrain and you build houses (cities), and you can view these cities. Kids want visual, graphical stuff. Grown-ups are more into gameplay and ai. Being historically as accurate as these fantasies can be is needed for civ, but this wouldn't make kids run away. Don' underestimate kids. They are very much able to like complex games.

	30-12-2004 13:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare ...there is some terrain and you build houses (cities), and you can view these cities.

This is the whole point. Civ, unlike pure wargames, is not about war. Sure, some players are more aggressive than others and most of their games will be layed out on the battlefield. The beauty of Civ is that it allows the player to pick the strategy he/she wants.

Slavery is bad. If you don't like it, don't use it. Better still, persuade your neighbours to stop using it.

Simplified and sanitised is not where Civ should be going. It doesn't need to so realistic that children have nightmares and adults get bored. Humour is welcome, but there is no need to re-write history and make it a Noddy in Toyland thing.

	30-12-2004 15:14									#12
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I see Civ1 and Civ2 as a really fat chess game.

But I see Civ3 as half chess half snakes and ladders.


That's my drift.

	30-12-2004 15:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No! I liked C3.

Exactly, we don't want a kids game.

	31-12-2004 01:21									#14
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are you being sarcastic Ludd?

	31-12-2004 02:16									#15
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I doubt he is. Kuci is just a kid.

	31-12-2004 03:22									#16
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I have come to like C3C better than Civ2 out of the box-yes, various things are inferior, and I wish more SMAC influences had remained, but in the end, it is a fine game.

As for the debate- this is a game in which I can, with a click of a button exterminate more digital denizens than say in GTA, though not as graphically. Just the fact that you have to devote a lot of time and that the action is engrossing but slow make it difficult to make TBS games "kid games"- I have seen no TBS than comes close.

That said, I agree about sophistication - I don't care if graphics for cIV stay the same as now-they are fine now- I want deeper diplomacy, a modified economic and resource system at the least, that and a social engineering screen, which should have been in this game as it is. Ideally, I have proposed a fundamentally different basis for the game, but that won't happen.

	31-12-2004 21:23									#17
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Agreed! See the post I am about to make for one pcgamer comment that scared the crap out of me....

	31-12-2004 22:26									#18
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I really don't care if the game is cartoony or not, or if it streamlines some boring micromanagement... I want it to be a deeply complex and engrossing strategy game, with a good AI and a good sense of immersion in the game world.

Oh, and where is the banana option?

	02-01-2005 06:33									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There are two markets, fellas:

* The veteran players from CIV1 and 2 (like me) who feel that the game has great stuff like borders and fancy graphics, but lacks of complexity (that does have CIV2).

* New players that the first CIV game they ever played was CIV3 that find the game complex enough (comparing to the other games in the market).

Im afraid the second group is far more numerous than the first and Sid has to make his bucks to put the bread on the table (but i think he can retire right now and live with luxuries ).

Pradox games (Europa Universalis I, II, Crusade Kings, Victoria, HOI 1 n 2) are complex enough. I'd really love to see a CIV game made by those guys.

	02-01-2005 06:50									#20
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In my opinion Firaxis makes two different kinds of products.

In general, the two are great games, no doubt.
1. Products that attract kids’ attention more, but can be definately played by adults (Pirates!)
2. Products which you can learn a lot from and use a lot of strategy, and that also require a lot of thinking (Civ)

I hope that when Firaxis says, "changing the fanbase slightly," they don't mean making Civ IV appeal to younger people, because I wouldn't like that either. However, if it is just the graphics that appeal to kids more, and not the mechanics, I’d not care.

	02-01-2005 07:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 Hear, hear. two extremes, CivIII vs EUII. CivIV should be somewhere in between.

Which one is the serious and which one is the cartoonie one?

	02-01-2005 08:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 Pradox games (Europa Universalis I, II, Crusade Kings, Victoria, HOI 1 n 2) are complex enough. I'd really love to see a CIV game made by those guys.

With Crusader Kings -> Europa Universalis -> Victoria save game conveters, it's practically a game of civ.

	02-01-2005 19:35									#23
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quote: However, if you want a serious, involving game of Civ...I suggest you check out SMACX

Which is by now only possible to play in MP.

	02-01-2005 19:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 There are two markets, fellas: * The veteran players from CIV1 and 2 (like me) who feel that the game has great stuff like borders and fancy graphics, but lacks of complexity (that does have CIV2). * New players that the first CIV game they ever played was CIV3 that find the game complex enough (comparing to the other games in the market).

I would hope that obvious ways to combine these two approaches in one game are taken. For example,

The city governor of civ3 could be on or off depending on your playstyle. Most people here at Apolyton would select the governor off, but to a new player, that is a nice feature to assist with gameplay. Both "markets" of players are satisified with an arrangement like this.

Can it then be possible to increase detail and complexity while programming options to help the new player?

	03-01-2005 06:23									#25
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When Civ1 first came out, the depthness and complexity is what intrigued most players; as time passed, games in general got deeper and more complex. So new player or not, a serious game of civ would intrigue those who are intested in civilizations, history, etc



I have this very strong worrying feeling that Firaxis are going to screw this up again.



And I will say it loud and clear. Civilization is not for people who want to play simple games with no purpose. Civilization is about, politics, leadership, economics, geography, war, technology and people. These are all serious subjects, all should be taken seriously and accurately. Why this should be dumbed down to majorly appeal to children can only be frustrating for Civ's main fanbase.

	03-01-2005 06:25									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 There are two markets, fellas: * The veteran players from CIV1 and 2 (like me) who feel that the game has great stuff like borders and fancy graphics, but lacks of complexity (that does have CIV2). * New players that the first CIV game they ever played was CIV3 that find the game complex enough (comparing to the other games in the market).

Eh, I've played both. I still like the C3 interface the best.

	03-01-2005 06:38									#27
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I read on the Firaxis site under "Did you know:" that the average gamer is 28 these days. Won't Firaxis then cut in their own meat by changing the fanbase and make the game for 3-year olds? Or is the real problem most average 28-year olds have the minds of three-year olds?

Last edited by Maniac on 03-01-2005 at 06:48

	03-01-2005 11:15									#28
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Comrade; SMACX is goodl, but I want Earth, earth's history, you know what I mean.

Even SMACX isn't deep enough.

	03-01-2005 11:42									#29
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Come on....by saying 3 year olds all the time, it's getting a bit immature. We know it's not for three year olds. Civ has always been a bit silly anyway...which is part of what they are going for with those leaderheads in Civ3. The advisors were a bit silly and so were the elvis heads. It doesn't really take away from the core game.

	03-01-2005 16:09									#30
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Yes, it is obvious that it's not for 3 year olds. I am just trying to make a bold point to Firaxis: aim for the people who care about this sort of stuff, not the people who don't care/don't understand it.

Humour is fine, humour is also a part of Civilization, but Firaxis are over doing it just a little bit (especially with the units, far too cartoonish looking). Can't we at least have SOME serious moments in the game?

After a nuclear weapon hits a city, you don't really get any feedback from your own people, other leaders and you don't really see the destruction of the city and its ppl that you just destroyed. It's just kind of bland.

There is little emotional attachment to the actions that you do, is that not what a leader has to face the most?