29-12-2004 18:02									#1
	Less forum activity then during civ3 developement? Got spare money?

It might be just an impression but I get the idea that there is now less forum activity about civ4 then there was about civ3, some discusions about civ3 got so many posts that you could barely keep up: about unique units and traits for civs, about having more then 7 civs(there was a time the civ3 devs where only planning on allowing 7 civs at a time) and the never ending optimists vs pessimists.

Thought this could be because we have still little information about civ4. But could there also be some other reason for the lack of interest? Like people who got enough of civilization or people who don't enjoy the information that has been released about civ4.

Last edited by kolpo on 29-12-2004 at 23:25

	29-12-2004 18:05									#2
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Less info and lots of the most active posters from the cIIIv days due to them being disillusioned I think might be part of the explanation.

	29-12-2004 18:52									#3
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Seeing as we have nothing concrete to go on...

	29-12-2004 20:08									#4
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That was a few months before the release of Civ3, not a whole year. A year before things were a bit more quiet as well. Not having much solid info to go on doesn't help either, nor does the disappointment of Civ3. Also, discussing ideas that might be in, proposing suggestions, etc, etc has been done to death by those of us who've been here for a while. Plus, contrary to now, we had new games being released then (e.g. CtP2), which drew a lot of people to the site anyway. And while they were here... (especially when CtP2 also turned out to be a disappointment for many).

Finally, there's more competition now. Apolyton was pretty much the only major Civ site back then, now there's other big sites like CFC, CDG, Player Ladder, etc and a very large number of smaller sites like Civ3.de (although for a small site, that's about as big as they come), DutchCiv.nl, ACOL (yes, they're still around ), Civilopolis, etc, etc. The fan community is spread out over all those sites, and if you take the Civ4 activities of all those sites combined, I'll bet there's actually more going on now than there was 4 years ago.

	29-12-2004 20:16									#5
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I think once we get some more info on civ4, there will be more discussion. Right now, we don't have much about civ4.

	29-12-2004 20:57									#6
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In fact, we may get a rush of returning inactive members and a slew of new members as the release date for Civ4 approaches. The hardcore fans and those just discovering Civ3 are on the site now.

	29-12-2004 21:14									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Less info and lots of the most active posters from the cIIIv days due to them being disillusioned I think might be part of the explanation.

That would be it. I used to be here every day for months wondering and reading about CivIII. The moment it came out, I bought it. I stopped posting because I was playing. I quickly realised CivIII was nowhere near Civ2 in quality and lost interest.

I remember CivIII discussions online from as early as 1997. It was going to be the end-all Civ. Many of the ideas posted here and elsewhere before it's release were truly amazing. When it finally did come out, it seemed like a watered down version of Civ2, not making use of the lessons learned from SMAC or CtP.

Sure, CivIII's development was troubled but it's a tough world and you are just as good as your last product. I guess after the stellar game of Civ2, people really expected something special. Now that we have seen how uninteresting Sid Meier's Civilization can be, we don't dare to hope for real innovation.

	29-12-2004 23:02									#8
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In a way I'm glad the current Civ4 discussion is at a more managable level than the Civ3 discussion was when I used to visit.

I wouldn't mind having deeper discussion of UUs and Traits.

I had figured that once there was substantial information on the game it was largely too late for useful discussion.

So wait, the busy era of Civ3 discussion was later on the development timeline than we are now? And people expected to affect the game then but not so much now? Sounds maybe kinda more hopeful then...

I think the discussion would be more productive if it were more concentrated on one site, but CFC doesn't seem to be going about it as well as we are. I wonder how productive it is for Firaxians to browse the less organized discussions in progress. I wonder what they get more out of, that or the finalized lists.

I just hope if we get more discussion farther along, it is somewhat productive. Maybe there will be much more material (for Civ5?) between now and the Civ4 release than there is for Civ4 now. I'm not sure how much of the kind of things I want can be added to Civ4 in expansions.

Anyway, count me as not disillusioned or disappointed in Civ3 nor considering it uninteresting.

	30-12-2004 05:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Brent So wait, the busy era of Civ3 discussion was later on the development timeline than we are now? And people expected to affect the game then but not so much now? Sounds maybe kinda more hopeful then...

The Civ3 List was much earlier. 1999 I think? The first version, that is. IIRC the last version of the Civ3 List (the Essential List) was finished Q2-2000, a year and a half before release. After that, the Civ3 discussions were not too different from how they are now, but as the release grew closer there was just more of everything (both discussion and info).

Plus, I get the idea Civ4 is much further along than Civ3 was around this time. I mean, Firaxians were already playing Civ4 MP games a year ago! And release is likely another year away! That suggests a development time of close to 2.5 years (if not longer), which is very long for a development cycle that doesn't have any serious problems that we know of. Reynolds & Co left Firaxis 1.5 years before Civ3's release and it's safe to assume Firaxis pretty much had to start from scratch on Civ3 after that. So Civ4 may now already have been under development as long as Civ3 (as we know it) was in total, with likely (almost) another year to go before release! In theory they could have a more or less complete game already and will spend the next 9 months polishing it...

quote: I think the discussion would be more productive if it were more concentrated on one site, but CFC doesn't seem to be going about it as well as we are. I wonder how productive it is for Firaxians to browse the less organized discussions in progress. I wonder what they get more out of, that or the finalized lists.

I agree I find it hard to imagine CFC's Civ4 discussions are terribly useful, you really have to follow them all the time to keep track of the most valuable stuff, which I can't imagine Firaxis doing. Then again, it's hard to say what Firaxis *is* looking for from the fan community, though I think with the Civ3 List and what's already done for the Civ4 List and other discussions on fansites I'm sure they have a fair idea of what the fans want. Plus I'm pretty sure they'll have some good ideas of their own, they're not completely incapable

	30-12-2004 05:36									#10
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If Firaxis is like they were in the past...they would pretty much just look for any minor good ideas that would be easy to implement.

	30-12-2004 07:04									#11
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It probably most has to do with the fact that we've gotten Civilization every year for three years. You can thank the facsination with Expansion Packs for that

	30-12-2004 09:46									#12
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I guess maybe they are allowing themselves more time because of experiences with Civ3?

When I think about it, what I really want most from Civ4 is things they can do after they have a more or less complete game: new maps and new civilizations. And scenarios. I wonder if they will have a slightly larger number of civs after all or if the new civs they mentioned will just be a few replacements.

I do hope the pros have better ideas than mine.

	30-12-2004 09:57									#13
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I am disillusioned with lists

JM
(MOO3 sucked)

	31-12-2004 04:02									#14
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We are in a state of darkness, and there is not much to be discussed. Of cource the list efforts are great, but it requires a lot of time to follow it all, and to have relevent comments on your own. I'm sure that the activity will intence as soon as some more info is released. Most activity around Civ3 were when some more general information, and screens were published, and before that it were not that hiht activity, other than ideas popping up, and being posted. Maybe there were some more ideas posted for Civ3, than it has been for Civ4 so far, but that is on Apolyton, and as Locutus states the number of large fansites is higher now than it were back then.

Also Conquests is just over a year, so there are not as long since a release as it were the last time, so the fans are less restless, and thus they don't produce as many posts regarding what they really miss most in the current civilization games.

	31-12-2004 04:19									#15
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I think the lists are still a good idea. Ideally, they give the game developers ideas on what to add to the game. Even if they don't take our ideas directly, the ideas may lead to yet more ideas which can be implemented. This is what you call 'brainstorming'.

At the very least, the lists give fans a place to vent their ideas.

	31-12-2004 04:49									#16
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Yes, lists are a very good idea, and I think that some firaxians actually are reading this forum, at least they are visiting the site, by the means of "who's online"