29-12-2004 18:55									#1
	a "James Bond" espionage model Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

the civ2 spy model with units you had to move around manually had a bit too much micro in the late game. The civ3 model was too abstract for some.

Here is a summary of my idea:

The player would "build" spy units. Cities would have intelligence points (IP) which would work like shields do but for building spy units.

To build a new spy, the player would select a city and click on the "recruit new spy" button. The player would customize his new spy unit by picking a codename, the starting skills the spy will have and the amount of training you want the spy to go through. This would determine how many IPs it costs to build the spy unit. The city would build the spy in a certain number of turns based on how many IPs the city generates and how many IPs the unit costs.

But the player woud not move spy units around. Instead, the player would assign a mission to the spy unit that would automatically "jump" to the target city in a certain number of turns.

I call it the "James Bond" model for 2 reasons:

1) each spy unit would be unique, with a name or codename and a set of special skills (sabotage, infiltration, counter-espionage etc.) and experience level (untrained, skilled, expert, elite, legendary).

2) spy units would have "careers". It would take more than one turn to accomplish some missions. After it accomplishes one mission, you could give the unit another mission. If a spy unit encounters a problem, it would prompt you for instructions (abort, hide, execute mission at all cost, etc.). When a spy unit succeeds, it could advance in experience level or even gain a new skill. If a spy is killed, it is lost forever. After a pre-determined number of turns, a spy would automatically retire and give all your cities a small bonus in IPs they generate (this would represent the spy passing on his wisdom and experience to help better train the next generation of spies).

	29-12-2004 19:33									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I wanted to add that this model would make espionage a much more interesting part of the game.

For example, if two spy units are in the same city, you could try to have your spy assassinate the enemy spy. This would allow "spy wars" where both sides try to kill the other's spies. If you inflitrated a city, you could have your spy do cool missions like steal an enemy nuclear missile.

	29-12-2004 21:04									#3
	Got spare money?

I like the point you make in the second post. Instead of a one dimensional "purchase/build spy-activity/unit" (civ3/civ2) espionage arrangement present more texture to this feature. Having an opportunity to conduct a "spy war" as you suggest would add a whole new dimension to the game. Obviously these could be conducted while two nations are "at peace" which adds to strategy of world politics besides just embargos and MPP.

Good post.

	30-12-2004 04:29									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

After assassinating a leader thus provoking a revolution or change of government, the spy or spy-network should have the ability to influence what type of govt. the nation chooses. cf USA's failed assassination attempts on Castro, who runs a socialist country on America's doorstep.

Anyway, I've not really played the game properly after the industrial age, and haven't got into espionage; it doesn't stir me into action.

007 model is promising, although it needs shaking up a bit!

	30-12-2004 06:52									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I liked the C3 system. I see no reason to change it.

	30-12-2004 07:02									#6
	Put an end to popups!

The trouble with the spying in Civ3 (at least in my POV) is that there really wasn't much use to it. I'd like the return to a spy unit. I think The Diplomat hits the nail on the head.

	30-12-2004 08:04									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous The trouble with the spying in Civ3 (at least in my POV) is that there really wasn't much use to it.

True. I've done just fine in every civ3 game without using espionage once. When you can play a game and completely ignore an entire feature, there's something wrong.

The espionage screen also makes things so impersonal.

	30-12-2004 08:36									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, the espionage subsystem is rarely accessed by me during play. We've all been through all the reasons before....the cost is too high to utilize until you have a lot of coin, by then, you probably don't need to spy. The risk/benefit ratio is too slanted towards risk.

	30-12-2004 14:42									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Argh! Not more micromanagement, please.

I agree that the Civ 3 spy module needs work, but going back to units is not the way.

	30-12-2004 17:40									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Argh! Not more micromanagement, please.

My system does not increase micro. Did you read my first post? You do not move the units.

	30-12-2004 19:35									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The spies in Civ3 were waaay to expensive. I don't want to spend thousands of gold to steal a single tech.

	30-12-2004 21:06									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd like to be able to assassinate/corrupt enemy advisors... To give the leader slightly inaccurate information about the goings of his nation, because of inexperience or treason.

Corrupt a military advisor, and the RNG switches slightly against him, things cost more to keep up, armies end up two squares from where they should have been...

	30-12-2004 23:29									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The thing is, spies shouldn't be very useful. Stealing plans and knowing what's in the enemy military is all I need and want.

	04-01-2005 23:52									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Rather than discrete individuals, I'd much rather have spy networks, although they could function in much the same way as individual spies.

	09-01-2005 05:48									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I like the basic premise.

The SMAC probe team may have been too good. Simply infiltrating datalinks of the rival factions was absolutely priceless. It gave you so much information that it was too powerful and complex.

The Civ3 system is simpler. Good. Too much simpler. Blah.

Here's my own idea, very similar to the diplomat's: a spy needs to be produced with shields and costs support. Once a civilization has spies, they can be assigned to either espionage or counterespionage. Those set to espionage might occasionally and automaticaly obtain enemy plans, techs, gold, etc. Those in counterespionage would minimise the risk of suffering from these mishaps.

From there, the model can be made as simple or complex as Firaxis and its consumers wish. I don't care whether they are units or facility-style improvements. Keep it simple, but above all keep it interesting.

	10-01-2005 23:53									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I like the idea... that would at least make me consider using spys... I only tried to use the spy function in Civ3 a few times, just to test it, but came to the conclusion that what you get wasn't worth it

And I don't like moving around with units like other Civ games either