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Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:34
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Gang Member To Be Tried As Terrorist Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Every time Lourdes Morales watches the TV news and sees a story on terrorism, she weeps.

Family members have stopped trying to console her, but they, too, cannot understand why Edgar Morales, the family's youngest son, will see the new year arrive in prison where he is waiting to be tried as a terrorist.

"They are comparing my son to (Osama) bin Laden ... and all those people who used bombs and killed thousands of people at random," said Morales.

"They are making him look as if he was this cold-hearted person, and he is not like that."

Morales, 22, was indicted on murder and other charges as acts of terror in May, along with 18 other members of the St. James Boys Gang, a Mexican and Mexican-American street gang.


Morales faces the most serious charge of second-degree murder as a terrorist act. A New York grand jury returned the charges against him in connection with the shooting death of 10-year-old Melanie Mendez, who died from gunshot wounds two years earlier.

Morales plans to plead innocent, said his attorney, Lewis Alperin. No date has yet been set for his trial.

Morales is the first gang member in New York to be indicted under the state's terrorism statute, which became law shortly after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

If the charges did not include the terrorism stipulation, he would face a sentence of 25 years to life if found guilty. With the stipulation, he faces a mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole.

PROMOTING TERRORISM?

At least 33 states passed laws amending criminal codes related to acts of terrorism since the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Most changes focused on money laundering, cyberterrorism, agri-terrorism and supporting terrorist groups.

New York's use of the statute to prosecute gang-related crime has sparked disagreement among lawmakers who voted for the legislation.

A spokeswoman for state Sen. Michael Balboni, who sponsored the bill, said he does not mind that prosecutors have decided gang violence is a form of domestic terrorism and are using the statute to prosecute Morales.

"Gangs are a forum to promote terrorism," said Balboni spokeswoman Lisa Angerame. "Therefore, the anti-terrorism statue would be applicable against them, even if the original intent for this law was not exactly to prosecute them."

Others say the law is not being used as intended.

"It is not that I want to defend gangs," said state Rep. Jeffrey Dinowitz. "But it should never be justifiable to use laws with purposes other than their original intent.

"We already have the appropriate laws to prosecute gang members for their crimes," he added.

The anti-terror law passed overwhelmingly in the New York Senate 53-1.


Bronx District Attorney Robert Johnson, who brought the charges against Morales, said the terrorism stipulation was justified.

"The obvious need for this statue is to protect society against acts of political terror," Johnson said in a statement. "However, the terror perpetrated by gangs, which all too often occurs on the streets of New York, also fits squarely within the scope of this statute."

The 70-count indictment said the gang members conspired to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population."

It included a long list of crimes cited as evidence they terrorized a city neighborhood, including allegations they harassed and robbed customers of a local restaurant, fired guns into a crowded park, shot a teenager in the face and slashed someone's throat.

Some residents say the law is being abused.

"We cannot compare gang violence with big scale terrorist attacks," said resident Miriam Medina.

Local store manager Lidia Chavez added: "Gang violence and terrorism are two different things."

But Eve Santana, owner of a bridal shop, said while maybe not on the scale of bin Laden, "of course they are terrorists."

"They do terrorize neighborhoods. Innocent bystanders die ... and they have to pay."


Appropriate application of the law, or an abuse?

As for myself,

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:36
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I think it is kind of silly to charge gang members under terrorism laws. Yeah, gangs suck, but terrorism laws are meant to deal with only a specific group of people.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I think it is kind of silly to charge gang members under terrorism laws. Yeah, gangs suck, but terrorism laws are meant to deal with only a specific group of people.


How would you write such a law? It terrorism only if youre muslim, but not if youre Catholic? Its terrorism if you're shooting into the park to protest US foreign policy, but not if youre protesting the failure of local merchants to pay protection to your gang?

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:42
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Hmm, tough one.
I think the reason people don't really see them as 'terrorists' is that they are used to them.

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I think it is kind of silly to charge gang members under terrorism laws. Yeah, gangs suck, but terrorism laws are meant to deal with only a specific group of people.


Describe that specific group of people? What makes it terrorism? Killing people with suicide bombs instead of drive-bys?

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:44
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Gangs have no specific political agenda. How can they be carrying out terrorism?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Describe that specific group of people? What makes it terrorism? Killing people with suicide bombs instead of drive-bys?


*points to GePap's post*

Terrorist laws are for those who use violence to advance political aims.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:48
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I think this is an obvious abuse of these laws. This is run of the mill criminality,for money, for status, and endless other personal reasons.

Chalk it up to an overzealous DA.

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:48
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As defined by the FBI: "the unlawful use of force against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in the furtherance of political or social objectives". This definition includes three elements: (1) Terrorist activities are illegal and involve the use of force. (2) The actions are intended to intimidate or coerce. (3) The actions are committed in support of political or social objectives.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:56
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Yes, what is the gang's "political or social agenda"?

That's my point, the point.

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
Emperor
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 29-12-2004 23:59 Visit Tuberski's homepage!
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Did the spoweswoman actually say "anti-terrorism statue"?

Gangs promote lawlessness by their very existence, which could be regarded as a social objective.

ACK!

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
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  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:01 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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I'd say that gangs and extortion rackets are definitely terrorist in nature. The laws are too tough.

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:04
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Most gangs maitain quite a bit of "social agenda." Usually it is to protect themselves or their neighborhoods against racism, corrupt cops, etc. I don't think they do much of this, but most claim too.

Mobs say this alot too.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:07
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nm

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:08
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Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Yes, what is the gang's "political or social agenda"?

That's my point, the point.


To control cities/areas.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:11
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So when I play civ, it's terrorism?

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto


To control cities/areas.


Please. That is a purely economic agenda as well. Do gangs enforce a political or social change? Do they force people to dress differently (I know gang colors, not the same) Do they tell people whom to vote for? Do they stop elections, hold elections?

Sorry, but this is bunk. People trying to fit things into the mold to abuse it.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:22
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quote:
People trying to fit things into the mold to abuse it.


Yep. Comparing a gang to Al Queda, or the Basques, or the PLO in terms of social and political change sought after is utterly silly.

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
Emperor
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Feb 2002
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:22 Visit Tuberski's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap


Please. That is a purely economic agenda as well. Do gangs enforce a political or social change? Do they force people to dress differently (I know gang colors, not the same) Do they tell people whom to vote for? Do they stop elections, hold elections?

Sorry, but this is bunk. People trying to fit things into the mold to abuse it.


Does body armor count?

ACK!

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:23
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Gangs are not terrorists... anyone who thinks so is a moron.

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
Emperor
ACK!!! PTHBBPPPTTT!!!!
Feb 2002
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:25 Visit Tuberski's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
Gangs are not terrorists... anyone who thinks so is a moron.


Tell that to people they terrorize.

ACK!

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:25 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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I personally don't think that terrorism can apply here, terrorism to me is something specific, a violent act intended to create terror to a given end or cause.

What definition of terrorism would be used here?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Tuberski


Tell that to people they terrorize.

ACK!


Just about all crime "terrorizes"... that's not the point. Gepap pointed it out nicely... terrorism tries to advance a certain political agenda. And no one yet has countered or addressed Gepap's point.

So my statement stands, and yours fades into irrelevancy.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:28 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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quote:

Tell that to people they terrorize.


You can't use the victims opinion to decide the categorisation of crime, guilt or punishment. That's state-sponsored vigilantism, not justice, which is by definition balanced and objective to the interests of the victim and criminal.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
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Jul 2005
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  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:28 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
I personally don't think that terrorism can apply here, terrorism to me is something specific, a violent act intended to create terror to a given end or cause.

What definition of terrorism would be used here?


A violent drive-by shooting intended to create terror to a given end or cause.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Tuberski


Tell that to people they terrorize.

ACK!


So you are saying, Criminal=terrorist?

Gang members join gangs to be part of something- criminal gangs exist to protect criminal enterprises- thats an economic, NOT socio-political agenda.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
I personally don't think that terrorism can apply here, terrorism to me is something specific, a violent act intended to create terror to a given end or cause.

What definition of terrorism would be used here?


A violent drive-by shooting intended to create terror to a given end or cause.


Again, you are saying crime= terrorism?

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap


Please. That is a purely economic agenda as well. Do gangs enforce a political or social change? Do they force people to dress differently (I know gang colors, not the same) Do they tell people whom to vote for? Do they stop elections, hold elections?

Sorry, but this is bunk. People trying to fit things into the mold to abuse it.


If you fall under the control of a new state, which collects taxes from you, does it matter if youre still allowed to vote for the leaders of an old state, which has manifestly failed to protect you? And isnt the establishment of a new state a political act? Of course gangs dont generally stop you from ALSO paying taxes to the old state, so they dont meet modern criteria for a state.

Im not in disagreement with you gepap - i understand what you mean, im just not sure how you would draft a law that would encompass everything you want to ban, but couldnt be used against gangs (suppose an Islamist group DIDNT attack people who wore the wrong clothes, but those who failed to pay the charity required by Sharia? What if a gang killed those who didnt wear gang colors? etc - theres a real grey area here)

Sprayber is offline Sprayber

Emperor
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:16
  Old Post 30-12-2004 00:33
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Excuse me sir, do you have some political justifcation for what you are doing to me or are you a thug after my money and a harsh street reputation?

 
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