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Optimizer
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Stockholm
Feb 2001
time: 06:14
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Please answer the poll!
Last edited by Optimizer on 20-01-2005 at 06:16
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petermarkab
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not sure what Europa Universalis' govt. types are. I imagine government in civ 4 to be based on SMAC's social engineering where you set the philosophical direction(s) of the govt. but with some additions.
i vaguely remember in civ 1 while in a Democracy, the senate would occasionally overrule a declaration of war, and to impose your will you would change the govt. type. It would be quite realistic to have a model where various decisions of the head of state (the player) would be challenged by the governing body (parliament, senate etc) and it would be at times easier or harder to get a decision through the bureacracy. This 'ease' would depend on the politics of the majority party in power; i'll leave the mechanics for electing that party to others (i'm too lazy right now  ).
for example, say you wanted to allow equal access to education for the aristocracy and working class alike, but the majority party are opposed to anyone having education but titled, aristocratic, and generally blue-blooded people, then your policy wouldn't pass, and you'd continue with that system.
Maybe this idea is too complicated to work effectively, but I'm sure those of us who want a realistic political and social model of government will come up with something that will work
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kolpo
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I want a more historical and more realistic version of SMAC it's social engineering. Civ4 is a history game and not a science FICTION game after all.
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Earthling7
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of pop
Jul 1999
time: 06:14
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I picked Policy sliders like Europa Universalis. It could have been the SMAC model as well. Here are my $0.02.
"Government" should not be Despotism, Monarchy, Republic, Democracy. I know there are more, but this is the way to win the game. Sometimes I skip Monarchy altogether. This is repetitive and doesn't encourage replay. There is no way to create the society you want.
I don't know if any of you saw or played a game called The 3rd Millennium. A pretty poor game in general, but the government model was outstanding.
I think Government should be a combination of the old Govs and a control panel. You have buttons and sliders where you decide on religious tolerance, slavery, propaganda etc. Discovering certain techs would add options to this panel. Picking certain Government models would allow you to decide what kind of a head of state you have. An elected one or a monarch. This would also affect the available buttons and sliders, but not to a major degree.
This odel would be interesting in the sense that new ideas are usually met with sceptisism. What we find normal was shocking a generation ago. Moving the sliders too far could create unrest. Too little when the times are changing (in other civs, in technology etc), and we, the leader are out of touch. Playing with the sliders in a subtile way could sway opinion.
Hard times during dramatic events like war, natural disasters etc would require different policies than peaceful times.
Am I making sense?
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petermarkab
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Earthling7, I like your description of policy sliders. The interface sounds simple enough to use and it sounds like they provide numerous options for creating your very own Utopia
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Naokaukodem
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What is the difference between government model and type? Thx.
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Naokaukodem
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quote:
Originally posted by Dauphin
I want the different government types to represent different playing strategies. When warmongers and peaceful builders have the same government type as their optimals something is wrong.
Each of the more advanced government types should be extremely attractive for a particular strategy route, and the 'one size fits all' governments should be diminished in value. |
I think it is already the case in Civ3, look at Democracy that can't fit to a warmonger so much.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:14
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EU system only with more detailed sliders, perhaps with new sliders apearing with certain techs or events. Also would be good for the sliders to work in a similiar fashion to EU - only able to change them periodically, and events (hopefully events related to what's going on in the game - wars, lost cities, ect..) can change them.
Maybe a sort of social engineering model as well, that can reflect government enforcement/authority and give certain bonuses to the movement of sliders (ie. less likely for a slider to move one way throuhg events, or able to move this slider with more influence, ect...)
Last edited by General Ludd on 02-01-2005 at 22:25
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Max Sinister
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New sliders with new techs? Maybe instead of that, you could change the range of the sliders. I can't imagine an atheist society in the Stone Age, for example.
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Optimizer
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Stockholm
Feb 2001
time: 06:14
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Here are some slider suggestions:
Centralization:
* Centralized (high tax income, low assimilation)
* Decentralized (low tax income, high assimilation)
Economic structure:
* Market economy (many private enterprise workers create city and terrain improvements, focused on happiness and commerce)
* Planned economy (you control all the working population, but you must build everything by yourself)
Set to 100% planned economy before Currency is discovered.
International doctrine:
* Militarism (no war weariness, high drafting, weak diplomacy, no international trade limited, no assimilation)
* Pacifism (high war weariness, no drafting, strong diplomacy, international trade bonus, high assimilation)
Gender roles:
* Patriarchate (high population increase, smaller workforce)
* Equality (no population increase, greater workforce)
Settings above 75% Equality are locked until the discovery of pharmaceuticals, becaause birth control is needed to fully equalise gender roles.
Religious authority:
* Theocratic (religious buildings are strong, academic buildings are weak)
* Secular (religious buildnings are weak, academic buildings are strong)
Settings above 50% secular are unlocked as Philosophy is discovered.
Political freedom:
* Authoritarian (strong military police, high corruption)
* Liberal (weak military police, low corruption)
Last edited by Optimizer on 20-01-2005 at 22:51
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Trifna
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of anchovies
Jul 2001
time: 13:14
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Well... here is what I had already written on the subject.
DISCLAIMER: The choices shown here are only an example, which is probably too complex for most players (while it seems complete to me).
I think I can update and resume my way of looking at this:
Goal
The goal is to look at what forms a government and to see how we could bring all this government in a few aspects. The ones I see are "System of values", "Justification of power", "Control system [justice, police...]", "Statecraft", "Administrative structure", "Economic system".
Definitions
- System of values: what forms the core belief for someone's life
- Justification of power: what is the rulers' justification for their power
- Control system: how citizens are controlled (justice, police...)
- Statecraft: who is put to direct the state, which necessarily implies how the state is ruled and its philosophy
- Administrative structure: the way power is divided between the main part the subdivisions
- Economic system: how economy is ruled
Difference with Civ 3 system, and this system's way to look at the problem
The main difference here is that it is about showing what structures and forms the government, not about showing a few possible results to chose from. In other words, it is not about creating categories like "fascism" and "democracy" as in precedent titles, but to show what is forming societies and, of course, someone can bring fascism or representative democracy (or what pleases him) by puting what forms that. ANY society can be built through such a system, in its broad aspects. Everything that forms a government should be there in a simple way.
Example that I brang earlier (updated, and not perfect)
*System of values*
religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism
*Justification of power*
theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic
*Control system*
theocratic - oligarchic - martial - tribal or local - free for all [each locality organized itself as they wish and can]
*Statecraft*
totalitarian [includes king only, pope or else, depending on "justification of power"] - oligarchic [includes king + nobles or whattever else] - moderate democracy [some have more power, like actual democracies] - total democracy
*Administrative structure*
centralized - federation - republic - [Switzerland-like] - decentralized [includes anarchist local self-government, tribal local governance...]
*Economic system*
communism - soft-line communism [not following completely] - wealth state - moderate capitalism - complete capitalism
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Sandman
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Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:14
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On the subject of sliders, I'd like to see sliders that go from '0 to 1', rather than '-1 to 1'. Basically, instead of a land/naval slider, you'd have a land slider and a naval slider.
Land strength doesn't always have to come at the cost of a pitiful navy. Germany before the First World War had an excellent army, and a very good navy. America has the best of both just now.
Similarly, you can be militaristic and still have strong diplomacy and strong trading power. Bismarck's Germany was a mighty land power that also had diplomatic clout.
However, there's a maximum number of points you can spend, so you can't be good at everything. To take Germany yet again, when they started building a navy, they also started losing out diplomatically. In game terms, they lowered their diplomacy slider to raise their naval one.
This system allows the player much more flexibility in customising their civ, rather than strait-jacketing them with unhistorical dichotomies like land/naval, quantity/quality or research/cohesion. Of course, you can still choose to develop your sliders along these lines if you wish.
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30-12-2004 00:32
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