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The Capo
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of the Baltimorons
May 2000
time: 05:12
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Alright, there are what? Three or four diplogames going on right now? Cockney's game, Saus' game, Euro and Ultra.
This is crazy, by far the most diplogames I have seen before going on at any one time. I made the proposal before in the Diplo-Faq posted by CapTVK or whatever his name was, that there be a huge Diplogame of all Diplogames involving the best players (Actually I think Ozzy said the best players part).
Well I think we should address this, because lots of Diplogames that fail (and lets face it most do) give the genre a bad rap. Alright, I don't know what I am saying I am just blathering on.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we should do something with Diplogames, maybe create a seperate area in the forums?
I personally love Diplogames and have actually found that I don't play regular MP games anymore now. I think that we could do a few things, maybe even develop a website that assists players in the ways of diplogames, like making meaningful posts and playing properly within the game, such as "playing your leader" to a proper degree.
But ultimatley I want a Diplogame that will go down in the history of Diplogames as the greatest ever. I think we should have a few new techs and lots of new units, custom graphics and the works to make this the ultimate Diplogame and the ultimate game of Civ for that matter. This obviously would not occur for maybe another month to two months, but I think its something that should be done, and something that will be done. And that is something I personally want ot be a part of. So whoever reads this, what do you say?
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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Capo, i agree on all points.
I too am personally shocked at how big diplogames are at the moment. And i'm somewhat apprehensive that this may dilute the whole concept, not that i want to hoard the genre, but i agree with Capo. Perhaps a sepperate place to hold them would be a good idea.
And as for the Ultimate Diplomatic game, i agree with you entirely Capo, I suggest we take our time and really select the settings and players and everything carefully. I'd certainly want you in the game and it wouldn't be much fun for me if i was left out, hehe.
I think selecting players is the most important part of it, diplo games have fallen apart because of people dropping out and people not truly understanding the concept and playing 'wrong' also it becomes discouraging when there is only one or two players making great posts and the rest are just ignoring that aspect of the game. We need to find 7 players who will be in it for the long run and who will play in the most enlightened capacity of diplo games.
I'm thinking perhaps a start time in January.
I suggest a large world map
7 human players
1x1x
slowed down tech tree for a longer more intersting game
increased movement for ships
any other delightful tweaking that capo and the rest of us can come up with.
I also suggest that any volunteers be screened extensively and be judged upon past diplo game performance. Perhaps interviews by Capo and I. Perhaps make this a Veteran Diplo game, for only the hard core experienced diplo gamers.
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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net
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suas333
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Brooklyn, NY, U.S
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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I agree that the Diplo games should stay here. I don't think there are TOO many going on either. Each game is trying new things, and the results can help you guys chose what settings to have a good big diplogame in January.
If allowed, I hope to be included if there is room in a larger game!
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suas333
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Brooklyn, NY, U.S
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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good point. In the 2 diplogames i've had, I was able to jump out to an early lead, but i don't know why that would be a requirement for this diplogame. I am probably overly generous in diplogames but thats because i don't believe there is 1 clear winner. A small civ can be just as fun and just as involved in the politics of the game.
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drake
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Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:12
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A suggestion if this game does get off the ground: Create a web site specifically for the event (and events like it in the future). This would allow more flexibility in the story telling aspect for visuals, diagrams, etc. that can be uploaded. In-depth profiles for players could be created, etc. If you're going to hype this as the "Ultimate" diplo game, do it the right way- create something that could be used to chronicle the events throughout the beginning of the game to it's completion. Sort of like the superbowl of civ. This sounds a bit much for a civ game, but hey, people do the same thing for a game that lasts three hours! A game of this proportion could last months! On a Giga-sized map, imagine how long it would take! Turns would be 15 minutes a player later in the game, easy. Just something to consider......
If you're looking for the most dedicated civ diplo gamers, this would definetly not be a stretch I wouldn't think. Stories are great. But they are even better with some nice pictures in them. For example, screenshots of territories as the game progresses could be quite interesting.........
Just a suggestion.......
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The Capo
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of the Baltimorons
May 2000
time: 05:12
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Okay first of all, Ming I didn't mean to say that this wasn't a proper place for a Diplogame, what I meant was that this forum has its limits, and a Diplogame is quite complex. I was thinking more along the lines of a specific area NOT on the forums at all.
Such as a website for it, so there can be constant updating of maps and crap like that. I also think it would be wise to tweek a lot of the in game stuff becuase sometimes its not too diplofriendly.
I don't have time to write anymore because my Lit class is starting three minutes ago, so I gotta jet. But keep this forum up because I made it.
Peace.
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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."
-Winston Churchill
"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"
-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen
One Love.
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The Capo
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of the Baltimorons
May 2000
time: 05:12
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Alright, well we should just call this one "Tales from the Diplomatic Front #" because as far as I am concerned we are seeing a break down in the idea of a continuing numeric record thing, or something.
I mean you have tales from the Monday Diplogame, tales from the New Diplo Front, and stuff like that. I know I created tales from the Ultimate Diplomatic Front I, but not only did I number it but since its on a Gigamap I think it should have a distinction.
As an aside before I get to the meat of my post here, I would like to personally give the vote of confidence that Frank Johnson should be in, I have seen his work and am not only impressed, but have emulated it on many occasions in my "elite" postings.
Jeez, there are lots of topics to discuss here, and as anyone who has played with me in a Diplogame should know, I love to interject myself a lot.
So here goes... First of all I think that the suggestion by Mdl or whatever his name was, is a good idea. This should be a special thing for the civ community and should not only serve as a precedent but also serve as a teaching method to those who think that diplogames are always destined to failure and bordem and to those who are curious as to what a Diplogame entails. I think the site should constantly be updated as far as the civ scores and demographics go, we should always have maps up (not in game, but based on the game) to show what is going on. We may want to have diagrams to help show what has went on in a particular subject, for instance show the slow military build up of the Mamaluke civilization on the Goomba border. Stuff like that.
Also on this site it would be cool to actually archive the posts of past diplogames as long as Ming and Co. would be willing to allow it.
As I have said before, I think Diplogames are growing in popularity because we are getting new gamers that aren't here for just the wham bam thank you ma'am aspect of the games, especially those in the zone, we are getting more gamers that like other aspects like long-term strategy, trade, diplomacy and other things that are really helping the genre.
I personally think that is is a good thing for the game itself, because this way at least every aspect can be appreciated during a game. I agree with the proposition that this be a x1x1 game, seven human civs, King mode or whatever actually doesn't matter to me, well I think I am talking way to much so let's get to the questions I want to ask...
1) What types of new units and techs would everyone want in this game?
2) Is everyone in agreement that for the sake of this game ONLY two civs can be on a continent? And we should try and involve each continent, liveable one at least?
3) Should we play on the regular world.mp map, or should we use a map that may serve as a better representation of the world?
4) What rules if any do we impose?
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
Alright, well we should just call this one "Tales from the Diplomatic Front #" because as far as I am concerned we are seeing a break down in the idea of a continuing numeric record thing, or something.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
We could go back to that, if anyone really knows what number we are at IX i think, Capo, didn't you start an ill-fated diplo VIII? I know there was a diplo VII, so we are either at diplo IX or VIII. Another thought of mine is i'm getting bored of this whole Tales from the X way of naming these, and perhaps we can show some creativity and break from that altogether. Though it doesn't matter tremendously to me. I believe diplo games started as "An open letter to all nations" or something like that.
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</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
As an aside before I get to the meat of my post here, I would like to personally give the vote of confidence that Frank Johnson should be in, I have seen his work and am not only impressed, but have emulated it on many occasions in my "elite" postings.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
While I remember Frank being involved in the split in Diplo V near the end, i don't know if that would tarnish his whole playing reputation, because i believe he has been involved in several others and has conducted himself in the best possible way. And i'm not entirely sure if he was even at fault at all in Diplo V, so yea, i'd certainly consider Frank for a slot in our next outing.
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</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
So here goes... First of all I think that the suggestion by Mdl or whatever his name was, is a good idea. This should be a special thing for the civ community and should not only serve as a precedent but also serve as a teaching method to those who think that diplogames are always destined to failure and bordem and to those who are curious as to what a Diplogame entails. I think the site should constantly be updated as far as the civ scores and demographics go, we should always have maps up (not in game, but based on the game) to show what is going on. We may want to have diagrams to help show what has went on in a particular subject, for instance show the slow military build up of the Mamaluke civilization on the Goomba border. Stuff like that.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Sounds good
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<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 11-29-2000 05:56 PM</font>
1) What types of new units and techs would everyone want in this game?
2) Is everyone in agreement that for the sake of this game ONLY two civs can be on a continent? And we should try and involve each continent, liveable one at least?
3) Should we play on the regular world.mp map, or should we use a map that may serve as a better representation of the world?
4) What rules if any do we impose?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
1) Well i'm not sure i would want any new techs, perhaps only modifications of existing techs like you did in EuroDip, new techs would really change the gameplay. Same thing for new units, change the pic or the name perhaps, but i don't think we should add any units, unless it is really good and you can convince me and everyone else otherwise.
2) Sounds good to me, but just have reason, we may want more than 2 in Asia perhaps, and 2 in Australia or South America would be crazy, so i think one in N. America, one in S. America, one in Europe, two in Asia, two in Africa would work well. Though open to discuss obviously. Personally i think i'd like a N. America start.
3) If you can find a better world map go ahead, but NO GIGA MAPS. I like the size of the current world.mp, some tweeks i can see would be increasing the size of the oceans to their more realistic dimensions, and changing the size of Europe to be more realistic. And any other tweaks you have in mind, but no Huge maps!
4) There are many rules we need to discuss. The bribing issue always comes up, and i think it is essential to include this in the game, though if the world community regards bribing a nefarious, dasterdly thing then they can respond accordingly to someone who uses it, but i certainly don't feel it should be banned in any fashion. Same thing for nukes. If you want to use them, fine, but expect to find the other 6 nations pretty damn pissed off.
I liked the idea of changing the movement of ships to increase their importance. Another issue we need to discuss is trading wonders, i don't feel strongly either way on it, so talk about it.
I think we should compel people to post, though i don't know how to do this. Perhaps have awards for the best post of the week where all players have to give a percentage of their gold to the winner. We could have visitors rank them at the new diplo site. Or anything else you can think of.
I'd like to see more creative innovations introduced to this game as well. I like how in Eurodip Moker is letting people 'invest' in his stock market, borrowing money and then giving it back to them with interest. This is very realistic, and could certainly be useful in the game. Perhaps not allow it until the two trading nations have invented banking or something.
And any other real world things like this, i like money exchange deals, cause in our current world everything centers around money and trade, and that aspect is significantly downplayed in the game. Perhaps think of things to increase this aspect. I like tolls and fees and other such ideas.
Any other rules?
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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net
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The Capo
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of the Baltimorons
May 2000
time: 05:12
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In a lot of Diplogames we have random starting points, which I personally dislike becuase it takes away from the ethnic meaning of placenames (most people try and name cities according to where they are historically, and the Egyptians having a city called The Hague "the court" in Dutch is stupid).
On that note, I would like to continue my traditional Euro-play and take the reigns of the European Union (I am having fun with them in UltraDip).
Alright I have devised a maximum civ toll per continent:
North America - 2
South America - 1
Australia - 1
Europe - 1
Africa - 2
Asia - 3
Antarctica - NONE WHAT SO EVER, seeing as how it doesn't exist in world.mp.
I suggest that players get to decided their starting point and we should play with REALISTIC nation names (i.e. no Metalheads). I was actually not going to add in any techs, but I was going to make a few units like the "Regulars" unit which is a colonial attack unit on foot, and "Infantry" which is a WW1 era attack unit also on foot.
Some guy e-mailed me and suggested I change the Republic to Socialism, but I said no, any thoughts on that?
I personally do not think that wonder trading should be permitted because it takes away from the wonder itself, and is quite unrealistic in all senses of the idea. The idea of a wonder (in civ terms at least) is that a civilization has achieved a great goal and due to this achievement has recieved some sort of advantage that only they could accomplish, trading wonders tarnishes this real world idea, and I think should not be allowed.
But one comes under the dillema; if a civ intends on granting land to another, but in that land is a wonder what occurs? Well we are all humans, so I think we can decide what the intent behind the land grant is in the first place.
In order to make the space race all the more far off (to use more time) I suggest an increase in the cost of creating parts.
I am interested in Moker's stock market idea, how exactly does it work?
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CapTVK
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Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Lot's of proposals and questions in this thread, I'll try to answer a few of them.
The Capo
Yes, my name is indeed is CapTVK, it's acronym in fact.
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I guess what I am trying to say is that we should do something with Diplogames, maybe create a seperate area in the forums?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Not really necessary, as Ming stated, this isn't one of the busiest forums. You basically have everything you need to make a good diplothread in UBB. You've got typeface to make your point [*] and there's the IMG tag to include pictures.
OzzyKP
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I think selecting players is the most important part of it, diplo games have fallen apart because of people dropping out and people not truly understanding the concept and playing 'wrong' also it becomes discouraging when there is only one or two players making great posts and the rest are just ignoring that aspect of the game. We need to find 7 players who will be in it for the long run and who will play in the most enlightened capacity of diplo games.
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You'll need more than seven in fact, it's inevitable that some people will drop out due to time, kids, natural disasters, you get the picture. If enough people are interested you shouldn't have much trouble getting a replacement. That's why keeping the quality of the posts up to scratch is important.
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I suggest a large world map
7 human players
1x1x
slowed down tech tree for a longer more intersting game
increased movement for ships
any other delightful tweaking that capo and the rest of us can come up with
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Those are the usual settings for a diplogame and I concur with increasing the movement rate of ships. Capo also proposed making caravans cheaper but i'm against that. Caravans are powerful enough already, their power only becomes clear once they start moving in numbers $$$.
suas333
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good point. In the 2 diplogames i've had, I was able to jump out to an early lead, but i don't know why that would be a requirement for this diplogame. I am probably overly generous in diplogames but thats because i don't believe there is 1 clear winner. A small civ can be just as fun and just as involved in the politics of the game.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
That's the spirit! 
In fact, playing as a smaller civ can be fun if you play your cards right. They can get away with a lot more than any of the major civs could.
drake, Capo
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If you're looking for the most dedicated civ diplo gamers, this would definetly not be a stretch I wouldn't think. Stories are great. But they are even better with some nice pictures in them. For example, screenshots of territories as the game progresses could be quite interesting.........
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
For an example of screenshots check the following PDF files here: http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/pdf/
OzzyKP
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We could go back to that, if anyone really knows what number we are at IX i think, Capo, didn't you start an ill-fated diplo VIII? I know there was a diplo VII, so we are either at diplo IX or VIII. Another thought of mine is i'm getting bored of this whole Tales from the X way of naming these, and perhaps we can show some creativity and break from that altogether. Though it doesn't matter tremendously to me. I believe diplo games started as "An open letter to all nations" or something like that.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Actually, "An open letter to all nations" was intended as an open letter in one of the first diplogames by John Barbarossa. People were invited to voice their opinion on a certain issues, that also included the readers. Yes, you can post in a diplothread even when you're not in the game!
Suggestion: Seeing that this will probably be the 'last' Civ2MP diplogame. I suggest that we name the thread "An open letter to all nations" to complete the circle.
The Capo
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Alright I have devised a maximum civ toll per continent:
North America - 2
South America - 1
Australia - 1
Europe - 1
Africa - 2
Asia - 3
Antarctica - NONE WHAT SO EVER, seeing as how it doesn't exist in world.mp.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Just what map are you intending to use? A large map or a giga map? The giga map I've seen has Antarctica on it, and it's filled to the brim with huts. I don't know if there's another world gigamap out there but you shouldn't use this one. Otherwise it just becomes a race for explorers to reach Antarctica.
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I personally do not think that wonder trading should be permitted because it takes away from the wonder itself, and is quite unrealistic in all senses of the idea. The idea of a wonder (in civ terms at least) is that a civilization has achieved a great goal and due to this achievement has recieved some sort of advantage that only they could accomplish, trading wonders tarnishes this real world idea, and I think should not be allowed.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Don't agree on that point, a player should be free to trade a wonder with another player for other benefits (money, tech etc...). In a diplogame, no civ will get all of the major wonders, so there's room for a leverage. Only switching I don't agree with is single turn happiness switching, two allies could both get the benefit of a happiness wonder this way. This way some of the smaller civs can get a chance to play along with the big guys. SoL can be useful, if you're a medium civ! 
And besides wonder switching comes at a price, some city improvements will be lost during the exchange.
That's all for now, I'll come back to this later.
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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So we have Ozzy and Capo on board for sure in this game, and a suggestion for Frank Johnson. Right now i'd like to extend an invite to CapTVK, with his experience and knowledge in Diplo games would be a good person to add to the cast. Cap, would you like to play?
And i'd like to discuss "unrealistic" names and themes for civs. Cap, i'd like to get some input from you on this as well, but i don't see any reason why I shouldn't be allowed to play as the Metalheads in this game. Capo wants these games to be as realistic as possible in his mind, though of course his relationships and stories between mussilini, alexander the great, and joan of arc aren't entirely realistic either. So why can't someone do an equally creative adaptation of an empire and role play that empire, yet rather than fictionalize accounts about historical figures use musical figures instead?
It doesn't detract from the playability or realism of the game, it is just an altered theme. Capo has it easy being the Europeans with an inexhaustable cast of characters to craft his stories around, but what about someone who wants to play as the Indians, after Ghandi you kinda run out of big names. Zulus? Celts? Can't be done. So while if someone choose to play them, the name of his civ would be accurate to our world everything else would be blindly made up and thus no different from anyone else in the game.
And considering we aren't playing this game in the reality of Earth history, but on an alternate world which we are creating around us, why not then use new names and new themes for empires? Why not then would the Metalheads be a suitable choice?
I can assure you that the game will be more enjoyable for myself and all others as well if i am allowed to play out my game under the identity of a people with a penchant for loud aggresive music. I have an inexhaustable cast of characters and city names taken from the musicians who have made their mark in this musical genre for many years. And I am keeping with the spirit of the game every bit as much as the rest of the players, my characters behave as real world leaders would, with similar statements and actions, but with a creative flair of Metal to flavor things a bit. I can only see how this will add to the game and not detract.
Please go through and read my postings in Diplo VII, i believe i conducted my Metalhead empire in a very proper fashion consistant with the spirit and style of Diplomatic games.
Special civs like this have exisited in other very successful diplo games as well, Diplo V i know had the Libertarians as one of the largest and most successful civs out there. Of course in history there has never been an empire that called themselves Libertarians or named their cities Freedom, Liberty, Justice and the like, but yet i think it doesn't necessarily detract from the game, it is all about how you can role play the specific civ and theme you choose.
Please let me hear your arguements everyone so we can discuss this.
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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net
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suas333
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Brooklyn, NY, U.S
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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I think changing the names of the civ/cities is fine. We don't want to make this game so strict that its boring! As long as the civ is still run, and tales told, as a nation in the world.
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Nap Bonaparte
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Newport Beach, California
May 2000
time: 05:12
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The " Open Letter to all Nations" thread was started by Frankdog....not JB. That game was played on a random map and was started as a regular civ game. It EVOLVED into a diplo game about half-way through and turned into a total adrenaline rush for 3 months(even more so than Tales from the (Still) Diplomatic FrontII
( I know...I was involved in both games). The mix of players and personalities was what made this game so special. The nuclear exchange at the end of the game was an extension of the diplomacy and World Politik that had been going on and was certainly not a detriment to the enjoyment or authenticity of the game. But be forewarned: "Open Letter to all Nations" and "TFTSDFII" required many months and an incredible amount of dedication to finish.
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" First France......then the WORLD!"
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The Capo
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of the Baltimorons
May 2000
time: 05:12
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Alright, well I know for a fact that I am dedicated to the Diplogame genre. Even when it is impossible for me to continue a diplogame I keep tabs on in and in some instances have even added to it (making maps and ****) so I am very loyal.
I have feeling that I can vouch for Ozzy on that same principle. I think what we have had so far is a resurgance of Apolyton players, I mean before we had a select few Apolyton goers, the ones that always were here like Nap, AH, and guys like that. But we are getting more people that are posting threads like "How can I start an MP game" or "Who wants to play I am new" which I think is in indication that people are either tired of the Zone or are just not going there.
Part of situation number #1 (tired of the Zone) could stem from the fact that the games there are impersonal, and give little to no chance of learning how to play. I know this becuase only a few months ago I was one of these new guys. I came here first because before I started MPing, I was addicted to Modpacks and making new units and scenarios (I am currently working on a Thirty Year War scenario, but this thing called a life has stopped me from finishing it even after months of work).
Alright well, back to what I was saying. The thing is, we have new blood here, and I am part of it. And I am tired of the "old guard" assuming that we can't pull this off, we can and we will.
I didn't start getting better at MP until I started playing Diplogames, I played in every Diplogame I could get into, and was frustrated that I was the only person (seemingly) making an effort to add extra dimensions to the game, read my posts, I love to make more out of nothing. I decided I would go back to the zone and try my hand, I mean I hadn't been in a deul in a while and my "Zone rep" may be nonexistant now. But when I got back something strange happened, I kicked some ass. I realized that the Diplogame taught me how to manage a civ without worrying about war first, which is key to a deul despite what most will tell you. A Diplogame is a very impressive teaching tool because it doesn't negate a rookie right at the starting gates, and that is what I think this game should try and do.
I have seen two guys who I consider newer players to the genre "Chris" (don't know his Apy name ,but its in the forums under our Ultradip thing) and Drake. I would like to invite both of them to join in on this game with us, they are good posters, they both play their national characters to the T (sometimes against my nation's wishes!!!!) and have helped to make UltraDip (the first ever Diplogame on a Gigamap) a success, well so far at least.
I have decided to delve into my Irish heritage by playing as the Gaelic Federation in this game, so there ya go.
This game will work guys, no matter what anyone says.
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28-11-2000 09:46
It sounds like it could be very intresting and fun. 
...But if there is "room" for me, please let me know..
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